I recall the statement during the debate on the social partnership Bill that Joel James made, and it was quite a strong statement. The words he used, I’ve got them on the screen here:

‘this Government is chiefly concerned with looking after their trade union paymasters.'

And, 'Surely the Deputy Minister can see that there is a clear issue in how trade unions will now have undue influence over policy'.

Those are words used by a Member of the Conservative benches, and at the time I had grave concerns about what was said, and there was a lot of concerns raised in this Chamber about that. But we need to remember the trade unions are the most effective representation of the workforce that has been seen in this country. I’ve had conversations with my own trade union, Unison, about this issue, and I’m very glad to have had that conversation, particularly as chair of the Unison Senedd Members group, and I enable links between Senedd Members and Unison to have those discussions.

If there is a criticism of the Government on this, and I feel there is a criticism, it's that the trade unions—. I’ve said this to the Minister myself privately, that I feel that the trade unions could have been involved more comprehensively and more deeply earlier on in this process. I think that is an issue that I would hope the Minister would recognise. And I know that there’s a system, an independent body that recommends NHS pay that is set up for that purpose, but nonetheless, we are nothing if we do not listen to the workforce, and the body that achieves that are those trade unions. So, I do feel that I’d like the Minister to respond on that issue.

But nonetheless, yesterday in the response to the leader of Plaid Cymru, the First Minister made clear that there is a limited pot of funding and many demands on it, and that is exactly why the Welsh Government is looking to introduce constitutional reform and see this concept of radical federalism that would free up the Welsh Government to do exactly as Rhun ap Iorwerth has said in his speech. One of the things that I would like to see, for example, is a Holtham levy, but we must have a different distribution of powers across this United Kingdom if that Holtham levy was to be levied for social care.

Councillor Carol Andrews is a Labour councillor in Bargoed, but also a nurse at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. She has raised with me the heroic efforts that she and other nurses are making there, particularly through COVID. Her daughter, Megan, has just graduated with a first-class honours degree in nursing, and will be a fantastic nurse in the future.

NHS workers do deserve a better pay deal, and I’m glad to hear that that discussion is ongoing with Welsh Government. And Unison, rather than meet with the leader of Plaid Cymru, I’d say to Unison they were right instead to meet with the Welsh Government, and continue those discussions, because my concern is when negotiations are held with opposition parties, and those points are then made to score party political points in First Minister’s questions, it detracts entirely from the seriousness of this issue. What needs to be done, as the Minister is doing, is for that constructive conversation to continue. And I know that that is what's happening with responsible unions, like mine, Unison, and we look forward to hearing the result and the outcome of that. We know that there's a potential for industrial action; I urge the Minister and the unions to work together to do all they can to avoid that.