Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, as you'll know, over recent months I've been extremely concerned about the number of river pollution incidents. I know I'm not alone in this, as many pollution incidents have been raised with me on a regular basis. Now, let me be clear, and for avoidance of doubt, I am certainly not pointing the finger of blame at our farmers. Now, having undertaken research, I am concerned about the number of releases by Dŵr Cymru made through each combined sewer overflow over the last four years. The findings are actually very startling. The number of spills recorded by Welsh Water using the 12/24 block counting method in 2018 were 48,158; 2019—73,517; 2020—104,482, and to date this year, 59,275. As I have repeatedly said, and many in our group have echoed, one pollution incident is one too many. Now, whilst the data for this year needs to be quality assured, the figures indicate that the total duration of all spills prior to processing through the 12/24-hour counting method is 516,270.5 hours. So, if you divide that by 24, we reach the startling fact that Wales has seen 21,511 days' worth of non-stop spills this year alone. So, would you agree with me, Minister, that the combined overflow situation in Wales can now be considered as a crisis? Thank you. 

Well, Janet, you make a very good point, which is that there are a number of reasons why we need to look at water pollution incidents across Wales, and, of course, they're not all attributed to a single source. So, we all need to work together in Team Wales to make sure that we reduce any kind of pollution incidents that affect our water tables, our river waters, our inland waters or, indeed, our coastal waters, and we need to do that together. So, all sectors need to work hard to do that. Our agriculture and farming sectors need to work just as hard as, obviously, the water companies, sewage companies, industrial polluters along the river banks, and a large number of other people who both rely on the water courses and, of course, require the water courses to be clean and in good conservation order. 

There are a number of things to say about that. First of all, we're working very hard with the water companies at the moment to make sure that the pricing mechanisms that are put in place allow them to make the right kinds of investments for the future, so that we can invest in the network and make sure that it is efficient, effective and works very hard.

We're also doing a review of a number of regulatory areas to make sure that the current breakdown of who does what in regulation terms, and the Welsh Government, companies like Welsh Water, utilities companies and so on, NRW, local authorities—who all have skin in the game, as the expression goes, on this—have the right level of regulatory and delivery mechanisms inside their particular bits, and, more importantly, that they fit seamlessly together as a whole and people can understand who's responsible for delivering what and for regulating what. So, that's part of it as well.

And, then, you'll know as well as I do, that we all have some responsibility personally for this as well, because a lot of the sewage spills in particular are as a result of people putting completely inappropriate things into the sewer. So, I had a conversation only this week about what we can do at UK level particularly, actually, and you can help with this—I know you feel the same as I do—to make sure that the labelling on products is actually accurate, so that we don't have things like wet wipes and cotton buds and things like that, that say 'biodegradable' when they really aren't, or say 'flushable'—even worse—when they really aren't, and we can make sure that people are not causing blockages in the system that then cause incidents. So, we all have a responsibility to do this, but I can assure you that we're very happy to work with you and a range of other people right across Wales, in a team approach, to make sure that we have the right kinds of responses to these sorts of incidents.

Thank you. And I'm really glad that I've succeeded in getting that on the record, that you actually do understand that there is an issue there.

But going specifically back to our water companies, during this year, 23 different locations have seen over 2,000 hours' worth of spills each, five locations over 3,000 hours' worth and four over 4,000 hours. So, such has been my concern that I have written to you, and you responded to me stating, and I quote, 'The Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales are working with Wales's water companies to develop drainage and waste water management plans, otherwise known as DWMPs, for the next 25 years. The plans will help ensure that our water companies invest strategically and transparently for a waste water treatment network that is resilient and affordable in the long and short term.'

Now, only recently, in our Deganwy estuary, in my constituency, a large number of residents complained about floating raw sewage and a horrendous odour, and this went on for quite some time. So, having then brought this to the attention of Dŵr Cymru, action was not taken immediately and this persuaded me then to report the situation directly to NRW. And, I'm sorry, but in a number of these instances, Minister, enforcement action taken by NRW cannot be considered to be anywhere near robust enough. Only a few weeks ago, the finger of blame for pollution in our rivers was pointed towards our farmers, and the draconian system of nitrate vulnerable zones was implemented. So, Minister, what steps are you taking to ensure that our water companies—[Interruption.]—play a more responsible role themselves in not allowing—? Do you want to make an intervention? [Interruption.]

There are no interventions in questions.

And, when they occur, that more robust action is taken by the companies and NRW as the regulator.

So, again, I think the conclusion you're coming to is a bit of a stretch from the set of facts that you're presenting, basically. So, as I said in my first answer, I'll just reiterate it: there are, of course, a number of players that affect the watercourses and water quality across Wales. They go from every single one of us to our communities, to our industries, to the people who use the water, and who discharge it into our river systems. That includes, of course, the water companies, but it also includes farmers and agri-businesses, and everybody must play their part. Everybody must reduce their emissions, everybody has to go ahead with a greener, cleaner way of using our watercourses, or we will not get them back into good conservation order and increase our biodiversity and, indeed, our water quality.

So, of course, we will need to work together, and, as I said, we're undertaking a review of where the regulation sits, where the delivery sits, whether it's in exactly the right place, whether it's effective, whether it's not effective, and how we can increase both our regulation and our delivery partners' ability to improve our watercourses. So, we're all trying to get to the same place. But it's not a question of pointing a finger of blame, everyone must do their part and that absolutely does include the farmers.

Thank you, Minister. Now, on another topic, I am concerned that planning applications are at a standstill due to the new targets for phosphate pollution in rivers. The Home Builders Federation have informed me that the delivery of all new homes, both affordable and private, is being affected in numerous authorities, including Monmouth, Newport, Carmarthenshire, Wrexham, Flintshire, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire, Brecon Beacons national park and Powys. In fact, the Welsh Government's written response to Monmouth council's preferred strategy for its replacement local development plan states that:

'The Deposit Plan and associated HRA must demonstrate nutrient neutrality or betterment in order to be considered sound.'

Whilst I am familiar with the special areas of conservation management oversight group, the planning sub-group and the NRW project board with its several work streams, could you just clarify to me how an LPA is to demonstrate nutrient neutrality when there is no agreed solution or guidance as yet offered by your Welsh Government? Diolch.

Yes, so again, this is about not being able to have your cake and eat it. So, you can't both say that you're in favour of doing something to mitigate climate change and then complain about every single measure that we put in place in order to do that. So, we have to do things differently. Councils have to step up to this, alongside all the other partners. We cannot continue to just build willy-nilly all over our floodplains, regardless of the pollution, regardless of the sewerage systems that you have just been telling me about, regardless of the ability of the infrastructure to cope with that and keep our watercourses clean. So, we absolutely have to do things differently.

So, this is about getting a group of people together to make sure that we work together across all players—and we've already listed them numerous times today—all players in Wales, to make sure that, when we do build things, we build them to the right quality with the right systems in place, that they do not overburden the current sewerage systems, that they do not burden the treatment plants to the point where we have the spillages that you've just been telling me about, and that we do that so that we enhance and increase both the water quality and the biodiversity. There isn't any other way forward. We cannot just complain that we can't build on the one hand and say that we love the planet and want to do something about it on the other. Those two things are just not compatible. 

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell. 

Minister, I'd like to ask you firstly about environmental governance. Environmental Standards Scotland has commenced its statutory role as an independent environmental governance body. Scotland has also put in place core environmental principles, with associated duties and guidance, and the Westminster Environment Bill is expected to pass this autumn with the office for environmental protection set to provide independent oversight in England and Northern Ireland. There's a pattern emerging everywhere else. Welsh stakeholders recommended equivalent actions for Wales in spring 2020, yet we still don't have a firm commitment to a time frame for legislation, leaving Wales with this indefinite governance gap. Citizens' access to justice for breaches of environmental law have been diminished and the environment is being less well protected. So, Minister, will you commit firmly please to bringing forward the promised legislation on environmental governance and principles in the second year of this Senedd?

Thank you, Delyth. You and I have discussed this matter a number of times, and I absolutely appreciate what you say. We could, of course, have looked at going in with the UK Government on their arrangements, but we considered, and I'm sure you agree, that they do not suit the situation that we have here in Wales and we'd be far better off to have our own system in place. 

We have, as you know, an interim arrangement in place, and we are committed to bringing forward suitable-for-Wales governance arrangements. The First Minister will be making—well, I'm not sure if it's the First Minister or the Counsel General, but one of them will be making a statement to the Senedd shortly about the next years of the legislative programme, and it's for them to do that and not for me. But we are working very hard behind the scenes to make sure that we have both the ability and the skill and talent to bring together all the separate strands to make sure that, when we present the governance arrangements through the committees for scrutiny and to the floor of the Senedd, they will be fit for purpose. So, I absolutely accept what you say, but we are in the process of working to make sure that we have all of the arrangements in place so that we can get the best possible governance arrangements for Wales. I didn't think it was appropriate to join in with the English system in this instance because we wanted to do that. I'm afraid that has meant there is a delay, but I do think in the end that's the better course. 

Okay. I look forward to hearing that statement when it comes. 

I'll be asking the next question in Welsh, Minister. Over the past year, we've seen important commitments for nature on the UK level through the leaders' pledge for nature, the High Ambition Coalition for Nature and People, and the G7 2030 nature compact. The commitment is to safeguard 30 per cent of land and sea for nature by the year 2030. It's a key milestone. It's referred to as 30x30, and it's supported by the UK and Scottish Governments and has been approved in Northern Ireland. If we take action now, then this could be achieved. Natural Resources Wales has made that clear, too, but there's no declaration of support for 30x30 from the Welsh Government yet. Would you, Minister, now be able to commit to effective safeguarding of 30 per cent of land and sea in Wales by that year, namely 2030?

Diolch, Delyth. Thank you very much. I really do admire your attempts to make me declare Government policy as part of questions, but I'm going to resist the temptation.

Of course we're very interested in being able to join with such a scheme; we are looking to see whether that's something we want to do very formally in that way here in Wales or whether there are other routes for Wales to do that. We are very determined to protect our natural landscapes and very, very determined to put them back into good conservation order. So, I've had a range of meetings with concerned groups all over Wales in different types of landscapes. It's been an education and a privilege to talk to them all. So, diverse areas such as wooded landscapes, the Gwent levels, the long grass where the curlew calls, the blanket bogs, the wetlands; we have a range of landscapes that require both investment and, I have to say, help for the laudable numbers of people who are already working across Wales to both protect and enhance our landscapes.

We will be in position to say something to the Senedd, Llywydd, in due course, but I'm going to resist, I'm afraid, Delyth, the temptation that you're offering me, the dangling jewel of just doing it now. So, I won't be doing that just now, but I look forward to being able to announce something in due course.

Thank you, Minister. Obviously, making commitments of this nature, they're symbolic, and so many of these principles that underpin the commitments are fundamentally important, so I won't make any apology for calling on you to make another commitment in my final question, in fact, which is about the declaration of the nature emergency that we as a Senedd made in June, which we were all so pleased to have seen as another milestone. That was a vital element of this motion that was carried, which called on the Welsh Government to introduce legally binding requirements to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets. I know again that I'm asking you about targets and so on, but these things—as I'm sure you'll agree—are hugely important in driving how these policies are put into place.

A Bill on environmental governance and principles would offer the ideal vehicle to do this, but, Minister, in your recent correspondence with the climate change committee when you were referring to the legislative consent memorandum on the UK Environment Bill, you declined to commit to taking this vital opportunity. You said that we have to wait for the conclusion of COP15 in May 2022 before taking that decision. Now I understand, of course, why in many ways you would wish to see the outcome of that, but waiting might not be a luxury that we can afford. Wales is among the most nature-depleted countries in the world. Surely we could lead the way by setting high ambitions ahead of COP15, forge ahead with vital primary legislation to set headlines, so that we can, yes, halt and start to reverse biodiversity loss in Wales by 2030, and achieve recovery by 2050. So, Minister, the final commitment that I will call on you to make is: will you commit to using the environmental principles and governance Bill to introduce a legally binding requirement to reverse biodiversity loss through statutory targets?

Again, Delyth, I'm going to resist, I'm afraid, the clarion call that you are offering me, but I do understand it, of course. What we want to do is we want to make sure that—. We've declared the nature emergency; we all agree with what you're saying about biodiversity loss and the need to protect our landscapes, of course we do. What we want to do is make sure that we have the measures in place to protect and enhance those landscapes. Of course we will set targets—that's how you hold our feet to the fire—but the targets themselves don't do anything, they just measure whether we succeed or fail. What we need is the action plans in place to make sure that we actually do the work, and I want to do that together with Members of the Senedd and the committees and with external scientific advisers. We're assembling a sort of TAG team, technical advisory group, that will help us do that and with the many groups of amateur experts across the country who have worked so very hard in their particular spheres, to understand and know what needs to be done in their particular landscapes. So, I'm not going to rush it; we will put the targets in place for our feet to be held to that fire, but much more importantly, we will work very hard on making sure we have the right set of action plans across Wales to put in place that protection and enhancement that we need, and that's not something we can do quickly. I want to make sure that those plans are correct, that they don't have unintended consequences, and that we protect all of the right landscapes in the right places. So, that's not a quick fix, but it is a fix, and I absolutely understand the need to put targets in place once we've agreed those actions, to make sure that we then do what we say.