Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank all the speakers who've contributed to this debate at the end of this long day? Can I also just reiterate the comments of support and recognition of the work of Sir Wyn Williams? I suspect he may well be listening in, so I hope he doesn't think that some of these comments are more in light of an obituary, because I can assure you that he is alive and well—it just sometimes sounds like that; I'm sure he's not going anywhere for quite some time.

Can I also say that one of the things that he—? I obviously have met with him to discuss his report, and again with the First Minister, and again with the Lord Chief Justice, on issues around the tribunals and broader legal issues. The issue of independence goes really to the heart of one of the points that he wanted to emphasise. So, on his behalf, that very much was contained I think in the statement I made, but also I think it's a point that you've made, and others have made, and we recognise this. Because the transition of the tribunals into what I hope will be a new, modern tribunal service in due course, has to be at the cornerstone of it.

A number of comments were made about the format for the tribunals in a number of the issues that were raised. Can I just say that we're obviously waiting the final report of the Law Commission on tribunals? We very much look forward to the recommendations, and indeed, I hope, to the implementation of those recommendations. Because what we are doing is really putting together now what has emerged on an ad hoc basis. There are very important aspects of administrative law that are very important to people's lives in many particular areas, and it's about putting that into what I hope will become a first-tier tribunal service, and a Welsh appeals service, with a president of tribunals who will have a very specific role.

Can I say, obviously, to the Member, that we probably disagree in terms of the issues on the devolution of justice? Because I agree with very much what Lord Thomas said to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee the other day that it's not a question of 'if', it's a question of 'when'. Because it is about how we can actually do things better, rather than 'Who owns this?' or 'Who owns that?', and I think those arguments are becoming clearer and clearer as time goes on. 

The point was made very strongly in the report, and again by Sir Wyn, in terms of the impact of COVID, but the efforts that were made to ensure that those cases were still dealt with—. And it's also very clear as well that there were advantages to moving forward to the greater use of online hearings and so on. And I think the access to justice point is really about the fact that these tribunals will, I think, become increasingly inquisitorial, rather than adversarial, and that is there to actually seek the right outcome, rather than who has the best representation on a particular day. And I think that is a way in which this part of our Welsh justice system can actually do things very differently. So, I think there will be those changes, and I think we have to consider all of those within the context of the recommendations from the Law Commission, and again, the fact that almost certainly, as a consequence of that, we will need a tribunal Wales Bill, in order to reform the structures and so on. I don't want to jump the gun on it, because obviously we have to wait for the commission report. 

Our programme for government commitment is to pursue the case for the devolution of justice and policing to Wales, and the Cabinet sub-committee on justice, which I chair, has been reconvened to take that forward. As Members will be aware, the clear case for change was made out by the Commission on Justice in Wales. We are continuing to pursue the case for change within the UK Government; continuing to work with our stakeholders to explore how best to achieve change; and continuing to progress our own programme of work. And I'm pleased that the new Law Council for Wales has now been constituted, and has held its own first inaugural meeting. 

In October, together with the First Minister, as I've said, I met with the president of the tribunals to discuss his report and future priorities. I've also met with the lord chief justices, with justices of the Supreme Court, and with other senior judges serving in Wales. And I think Members can take heart at the level of engagement from our most senior judges with the particular needs of Wales—. And I'm particularly pleased to see so much positive judicial engagement with the new law council. More recently, as I said, I met with Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd to discuss the future of justice in Wales. And, whilst the pandemic has slowed the pace of change, the arguments made out by the commission on justice for constitutional change and devolution of justice have, I think, if anything, been strengthened by the exceptional circumstances that we've found ourselves in. 

Finally, as I said, I anticipate receiving the Law Commission's report on the devolved tribunal by the end of the year. It will signpost our journey towards a modern tribunal system for Wales, and I look forward to considering the commission's recommendations for a distinct Welsh policy in this important area. Dirprwy Lywydd, in drawing to a conclusion, I'd again like to thank the president for his third annual report, and for his ongoing leadership of Welsh Tribunals. Diolch.