The next item this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Climate Change: the homelessness action plan. I call on the Minister, Julie James. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I am launching the Welsh Government’s ending homelessness action plan. This is a plan that takes forward our 2019 strategy for ending homelessness and the recommendations of the expert homelessness action group. It sets the direction for how we will achieve our ambition of ending homelessness for people across Wales. I want to say at the outset, and on the eve of the co-operation agreement coming into effect, that ending homelessness is an ambition we share with Plaid Cymru. I look forward to working with my colleagues to putting this plan into action and doing all we can to make that ambition a reality.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the pandemic has touched every aspect of our lives. It has also changed how we respond to homelessness. Since March 2020, with the support of our local authorities, registered social landlords and third sector partners, we have fundamentally challenged centuries of acceptance and tolerance. The pandemic has exposed a level of homelessness previously hidden from view, but it has also allowed us to up-end established ways of working and, in doing so, it has shown us that by making a real shift in our approach we make a real and lasting difference.

I have been very clear: there will be no going back. An opportunity now exists to build on the progress made during the pandemic, to take radical action to end homelessness in Wales. The ending homelessness action plan has at its core the radical shift needed to end homelessness in Wales. To do this, we must make the system changes required to prevent homelessness and make the move to rapid rehousing so people are in temporary accommodation for the shortest possible time. This is about ensuring homelessness is prevented in most cases so that in the future it becomes a rarity. It is about shifting and transforming our homelessness and housing services so that when homelessness does occur, it is brief and people are quickly supported back into a suitable and stable home so that their experience of homelessness is not repeated.

The action plan sets a measured and strategic vision for the future of homelessness services and allows us to develop a post-pandemic model of normal. Our approach is evidence based and builds on the reports and recommendations of the expert homelessness action group, which has worked with the sector, service providers and, most importantly, with service users. This is not just a housing issue. Responsibility for ending homelessness extends beyond the dedicated homelessness and housing teams and departments. It must and will be based on an all-public-services response.

The causes of homelessness extend beyond access and availability of affordable homes. We have to address core structural issues of poverty and inequality, ensure the availability and effectiveness of universal and targeted prevention measures, effectively respond to trauma and adverse childhood experiences, mental ill health and substance misuse. This makes ending homelessness a cross-sector, cross-Government priority relevant to health, social services, education, criminal justice, community services and our wider economy. All this is recognised within the action plan, as is the need for wide-ranging legislative and policy reform. The action plan relies on partnership and preventative working; this will need to be underpinned by courage and leadership across all public services in Wales.

I accept that some of the ambitious changes we want to make, such as the focus on prevention and rapid rehousing, legislative reform and the large and sustained programme of social house building, will be challenging. This may create concern around the pace of change. I understand these concerns and I am determined that wherever further support is needed, the Welsh Government will provide it, as we have done with the record investment in the housing support grant and the social housing grant.

I expect landlords, housing development teams and planners to show urgency in how we end homelessness in Wales. I expect to see the housing needs of diverse communities and what we now know about the true scale and nature of homelessness reflected in the local housing market assessment, and those needs reflected in local authorities' housing prospectuses and programme development plans. The urgency of this is self-evident, with more than 6,900 adults and children currently living in temporary accommodation. In the short term, I expect to see all social landlords, both registered social landlords and stock holding authorities, stepping forward and playing their part in allocating housing to those most in need across Wales, and I will carefully be watching their progress on this.

Too often, housing allocation is used as a reward for good behaviour rather than an essential prerequisite for tackling social exclusion and inequality. I expect to see this change. In the longer term, to end homelessness, we need to increase housing capacity in both the social and private rented sectors. Our ambitious social house building programme is an important tool in achieving our objective of ending homelessness and shifting to rapid rehousing.

The private rented sector plays a hugely important role in the housing market, enabling people and families to find a home that is right for them. I am therefore pleased to announce today funding for the national roll-out of the leasing scheme Wales. Based on our successful pilot scheme, and worth £30 million over five years, this is a programme for government commitment and will improve access to long-term affordable housing in the private rented sector. It delivers security for tenants and confidence for landlords. Property owners will be encouraged to lease their properties to local authorities in return for a rent guarantee and additional funding to improve the condition of the property. Local authorities can then use those properties to provide affordable and good-quality accommodation for people who are at risk of or experiencing homelessness. Tenants on the scheme will benefit from longer term security of tenure at rents restricted to the local housing allowance rates, and with additional funding from Welsh Government to ensure they receive the level of support they would expect in social housing. It will strengthen links between local authorities and private sector landlords, providing pathways for households experiencing or threatened with homelessness into housing and offering financial stability and support for landlords. I do not underestimate the scale of the transformation required, but, as is clear in the programme for government and the action plan, I am completely committed to this transformation.

We have seen what we can achieve when we work together, by making sure no-one was left on the streets through the pandemic. We now need to step forward together as leaders and professionals in public service, united in not tolerating homelessness and working to ensure everyone in Wales has a place to call home. I do want to take this opportunity to thank everyone working in homelessness and housing support services for the enormous help and support they provide every day. They transform lives, they offer hope and they have undoubtedly saved many lives throughout this pandemic. My priority now is to build on this success, and this will be taken forward in collaboration with the Plaid Cymru Senedd group as part of the co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. Diolch yn fawr.

The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As a declaration of interest, I would like to refer Members and members of the public to my own register of interests.

Minister, the deepening homelessness crisis in Wales is devastating and isolating for far too many in our society. In 2019, 12,399 households were assessed as homeless, that being a 79.9 per cent increase on 2015-16. The latest data shows there were 6,935 people in temporary accommodation at the end of September 2021, of which 1,742 were dependent children. Whilst I recognise that you do triumph the new £30 million funding pot over five years for local authorities under the private rented sector leasing scheme, the fact of the matter is that this follows a five-year freeze to the HSG budget, which has exacerbated homelessness issues. 

Indeed, in its inquiry into rough-sleeping, the Senedd's Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee—and I was on it during that time—found that the lack of long-term, sustainable funding as a potential barrier to preventing and tackling rough-sleeping. Minister, first I wish to ask whether you are in a position today to amend section 2 of your high-level action table to ring-fence the increase to the housing support grant for at least three years so that long-term certainty can be provided to housing providers and homelessness prevention services.

We welcome the fact you are now acting on the Welsh Conservatives' calls for a housing first model in Wales, which works by giving people safe, clean housing immediately, whatever their needs, and giving them wraparound support. However, adequate housing is being increasingly replaced by temporary stays in B&B establishments and hotel rooms—and placing vulnerable residents in hotel rooms, having to be there whilst other families are visiting. As well as this being wholly unsuitable for the well-being of those made homeless, it is also unsustainable for the public purse. I have also got constituents in my constituency of Aberconwy who have been in temporary accommodation for 18 months; I don't know how anyone can describe that as temporary.

In FOI replies obtained by my office in the year 2021, Bridgend County Borough Council spent £1,266,253 on B&B-type accommodation. Rhondda Cynon Taf say they spent £0.5 million on such accommodation. In contrast, Public Health Wales estimates that housing first models for homeless individuals with complex needs returned £3.60 for every £1 spent, and every £1 invested in moving people out of homelessness generates £2.80 in benefits. So, it is a no-brainer. 

So, Minister, will you clarify what recent discussions you have undertaken with housing associations and local authorities under the housing first network to determine new indicators that could identify suitable properties that could be used to provide housing?

We know that approximately 67,000 people in Wales languish on a social housing waiting list for up to 18 months, which is roughly equivalent to around 20,000 households. These statistics underline that the homelessness crisis could continue to deepen if action is not taken now. And again, I wish to implore you as the Minister responsible to take urgent steps to help bring empty properties back into use for people at risk of homelessness.

The schemes that you're flagshipping today, the £25,000 incentive for landlords to bring their property back, that's been available, but how many local authorities—? Minister, can you tell us today how many local authorities have used it? According to the FOI replies that I referenced earlier, in 2020, Cardiff Council gave out only two Houses into Homes empty homes loans, Newport City Council shockingly gave out just one.

Minister, given that your statement says that you wish to strengthen links between local authorities and the private sector, can you commit to undertaking further discussions with local authorities to review how to increase the profile and successful application rate of the empty homes loans scheme?

I wish to conclude by making clear my ambition to see the appointment of a homelessness commissioner for Wales. Ideally, someone who actually has immense experience in this field. Recognsing that a Housing Support National Advisory Board has been established, I would envisage that this commissioner would head such a council to help co-ordinate and deliver outcome monitoring and strategy. As actions 13 and 14 of the plan get under way, Minister—

The Member will conclude now, please.

Yes, I am doing.

Good.

Will you commit to meeting with me away from the Siambr so that this commissioner proposal can be discussed in some greater detail, ensuring that policy action reflects the priority required to tackle, once and for all, the root causes of homelessness? Diolch.

Well, as usual, Janet Finch-Saunders has read out a series of ill-thought-out statistics, many of which I've actually set out in my own statement, and made—well, I don't know quite what she was doing. She's calling for me to take action immediately—I am today launching the action plan, so I think that's about as immediate a response as you can make to a call for action. So, this is the launch of the action plan. Perhaps, Janet, if you listened to what I was saying rather than prejudging what you were going to say, you would know that.

You also said something about the freezing of the housing support grant. I think you must be confused between different grants there. We've done no such thing. We also haven't been able to give multi-annual settlements, which I think is what you were calling for, simply because, up until the current comprehensive spending review, we've only had annual budgets of our own. Now that we've got a multi-annual statement, no doubt you will see in the draft budget commitments to multi-annual funding coming forward, although I'm not going to be drawn on what the draft budget will say—Members will have to wait for my colleague, the Minister for Finance and Local Government, to make those announcements.

What we are announcing today is a radical shift in the way that we approach homelessness in Wales. Let there be no mistake: the record of the Welsh Government and the homelessness services right across Wales, including all the public sector involvement, is absolutely outstanding. What we've managed to do during the pandemic is extraordinary, and puts to shame the goings on of the Conservative Government across our border, where you have enormous numbers of people sleeping rough because they stopped the all-in policy last summer, quite shamefully. So, we have managed to do that. Yes, there are large numbers of people in temporary accommodation, because the alternative to that would be rough-sleeping, as you see in England all the time. So, you'd do well to look to your own Conservative Government there for some compassion.

You also spoke about the root causes for homelessness, one of which is poverty. I need not remind you again about the £20 removal from universal credit, about the freezing of the local housing allowance, about the scandalous multiplier for people who are working and on universal credit. So, Janet, I am taking absolutely no lessons from you about neither compassion nor ending homelessness, because your Government across the border, which you support and never criticise, has done no such thing. Here in Wales we have done something radical. We have done it in conjunction with our homelessness action group, which includes experts right across the sector. We have been praised by a diverse group of people, including Lord Deben, who's the chair of the Climate Change Committee, on our action on homelessness and poverty, and you would do well to take some lessons from that, and not come up with—I don't know quite what you were suggesting there at the end. I'm always glad to meet you outside the Chamber, Janet, but honestly, you would do well to have a look at what the action plan actually says before we have that meeting.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Good afternoon and thank you, Minister, for that statement. Deputy Llywydd, it's sad to say, but the latest homelessness statistics here in Wales paint a sad picture, and partly because of the cruel policies of Boris Johnson and his unprincipled Government in Westminster. For example, almost 1,400 homeless people were moved into temporary accommodation during September, which was an increase of 176 on August, bringing the total in temporary accommodation, as we've heard, to around 7,000 people, almost 280 of them being dependent children under 16, bringing the total of dependent children to 1,700. However, fewer than 500 homeless people were moved into proper accommodation, 52 in August, and of those who were given appropriate accommodation, 152 were dependent children under the age of 16, a reduction of 19 on August.

So, that's the picture of homelessness in Wales today, and it's not a pretty picture, but there are reasons for that, as we've already heard. I'm sure you would agree that no society can claim to be a fair and just society while people still don't have a roof over their heads. The good news, however, is that between the beginning of the pandemic and the end of September this year, over 15,000 people formerly homeless were assisted into urgent temporary accommodation, and we must congratulate those hard workers in our local authorities, and those charities who have worked tirelessly to house these people, but this shows the scale of the problem. I'm sure that everyone here shares the ambition of eradicating homelessness, but if we are truly to deliver this, then we must see radical action, effective action, in order to deliver our ambitions. We've now heard many times about the Finnish model and Housing First, but now is the time to stop discussing theory, and it's time for action. After all, homelessness is a political choice, and eradicating it is also a political choice.

The commitments outlined in the co-operation agreement between the Government and Plaid Cymru are ambitious and far-reaching. The agreement notes that homelessness should be only for a brief period and should not be repeated. We will work together to reform housing legislation, to implement the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016 in order to provide safeguards for those renters, and to implement the recommendations of the homelessness action group. I look forward to collaborating with you in this area, Minister, for the benefit of the people of Wales.

Llywydd, in that spirit of collaboration and finding solutions, I’d like the Minister to answer certain questions on specific concerns around homelessness in Wales and the plan to eradicate homelessness. Rough-sleeping is among the most extreme indicator of homelessness, which in itself is an indicator of a broader housing crisis. This is the most dangerous kind of homelessness. Although the pandemic demonstrated that we could act differently in a very brief period of time, there is a lot more to be done, with the latest data showing an increase in rough-sleepers here in Wales. What assurance, Minister, can you give us that the issue of rough-sleeping will be a thing of the past as a matter of urgency? Also, can the Minister outline what specific support the Government will provide to people who are rough-sleeping in Wales? Such support could include identifying all those sleeping rough and helping them immediately whilst they seek to find a home, helping them with benefits so that they can access appropriate housing, rather than providing temporary solutions. We need to incorporate a housing first approach across Wales.

The reports of the homelessness action group show that public services beyond housing departments often come into contact with people at risk of homelessness at an early stage, before the housing and homelessness survey actually engages with them. So, we need to look closer to home. We need to look upstream in order to identify these people sooner, such as what’s been done in health, social care, justice and crime, for example. So, Minister, what specific work is in train to help your preventative work in tackling homelessness upstream, if you like?

I would like to finish by talking about introducing a national leasing programme for Wales, which you’ve already mentioned. You mentioned that home owners will be encouraged to lease their properties to local authorities in exchange for a rental guarantee and additional funding to improve the condition of the property. I’d like to know more about this and how this can work on a practical basis. Who will encourage these property owners to participate? How will that happen? How much additional funding will be allocated to improve the state of the housing? Will additional funding be available for local authorities to run this scheme? And what lessons emerged from the pilot scheme that you mentioned and how will these lessons steer your actions? Thank you.

Diolch, Mabon. I completely agree with the basic premise of your contribution. Rough-sleeping is the scourge, the visible and most appalling form of homelessness, but there are many other sorts of homelessness, and if the pandemic has shown us anything, it's shown us the extent of that across Wales. In previous spot counts of rough-sleeping, we knew it was under counting people who were rough-sleeping. We knew particularly women weren't picked up. Women typically sleep in the day and stay awake all night for safety reasons, and so on, if they're rough-sleeping. So, we knew it was under counting, but we had no idea of the extent of that, and what the pandemic has done is shown us the true extent of that. 

The system in Wales has responded magnificently to that. If you had told me before the pandemic that we could house the number of people we've housed, temporarily or otherwise, across Wales, I would have thought that was impossible. Fortunately, at that point, we had commissioned the homelessness action group to work with us, and they had, just a few weeks before the pandemic struck, given us the first of their action plans, and they and us envisaged that that would take us three to five years to put those things in place. We put them in place in 16 weeks because everybody in Wales just was incredible. I'm just in awe of the way that they worked. But, of course, that was just temporary accommodation for most of them. Some of them were lucky enough to get permanent accommodation, but most people got temporary accommodation.

And then, what you're talking about is the churn that we've had ever since. So, as the local authorities move 500 or 600 people out each month into their permanent home, another 1,000 present across Wales, so we've got like a tap running. So, clearly, what we need to do is get upstream of that and put the preventative measures in place. But you identified in your comments about Boris Johnson's Government, one of the prime problems that we have, because one of the causes of this is poverty and debt stress. So, we have relationship breakdowns—the pandemic exacerbated that—so we'll have to put a lot of money—and that's our intention—into assisting families to stay together, and there's a swathe of things across all public services to do that, all the child and family services and social services and so on. There's specific debt and income advice that we put in place to help people maximise their income, and there are a large number of schemes—. Deputy Llywydd will be very impatient with me if I start to list them in my answer, but there are a large number of schemes there, and what we're doing is training people to access those for the families.

There are very specific mental health and substance abuse problems that people have as they fall out of housing, not necessarily at the beginning, but they fall into it, and in particular there's a pathway for people in the prison system, so we've been running a successful pilot with Cardiff prison, where we targeted people who were effectively coming round and round to make sure that we had a pathway into permanent housing for them. And yesterday I met a very, very inspirational young man called Jonathan in Mike Hedges's constituency, who'd had that kind of terrible chaotic lifestyle and is now an inspirational human being because he's got his permanent home, he had the support put around him and he's got himself onto his feet. He's proof, if we needed it, that this isn't about the individual. It's just about the terrible start they have in life and the luck they didn't have that perhaps you and I did have. So, that made me even more determined to make sure that people have that second chance to put their life back on track.

So, we do need a housing-first approach, but that's only part of a rapid rehousing approach. Housing first is a very specific set of things that we do for people with a lot of support requirements, but a rapid rehousing approach can be used for people who don't really have that and have just fallen out of housing. They don't necessarily need all the wraparound support. But that rapid rehousing is the thing. No more will we have the earned place on a ladder, where you get a reward and fall back and so on. I just don't understand how anyone ever thought that would work. It clearly doesn't work, and so we're going to come away from that.

The lease scheme that we're announcing is just our attempt to make sure that we maximise the number of houses available, and in particular we're worried about the private rented sector and the requirements for them to bring their properties up to standard from the UK Government—so, energy performance certificate E at the moment, about to go to EPC C—and our worry that the private rented sector won't be able to step up to that and will take their properties out of the private rented sector. So, this scheme is a way to guarantee them an income and give them a grant to make sure their property stays in the private rented sector and to give better security of tenure and support to the tenants there. So, it's directly aimed at that, although we would welcome any landlord that wanted to come in as part of the scheme. So, it's about—. It's got a climate change bit, if you like, because it brings those properties up, makes them better insulated, it helps fuel poverty and it gives people security of tenure. And so the amount of money available will differ depending on the property type and the condition and where we want to get it to, but this is all about maximising the number of houses available to us to make sure that people get that permanent house.

Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I thank the Minister for her statement. Our committee has agreed that scrutinising policies and actions to end homelessness is one of our main priorities over this Senedd term. Indeed, the predecessor committee, which I also chaired, welcomed the actions taken at the start of the pandemic to place people sleeping rough, and others, into temporary accommodation. Since then, large numbers of people who are homeless or threatened with homelessness have been presenting to local authorities and have been provided with temporary accommodation every month. A significant number of those people are also being found long-term permanent accommodation. So, a lot of good work has been and is being done, but of course it's vital that the progress made throughout the pandemic isn't lost, and I know that the Minister is very much aware of that. Already we’re seeing the number of people sleeping rough increasing, which is a big concern.

This week, our committee will be hearing from the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales on his report, 'Homelessness Reviewed: an open door to positive change'. I’m sure that, following that session, and indeed the Minister's statement and this discussion today, our committee will decide on its next steps in terms of continuing our scrutiny. So, today's Minister's statement is very timely for us, and of course it's very timely in terms of the threat to homeless people in Wales, given that we've had a sudden temperature drop and bad weather. Over the last week, I think that's really made people think ever more keenly as to what more can be done to help people who are faced with that desperate situation of sleeping on the streets. Obviously, real urgency is needed if we are going to enable safe spaces for people to live in away from the streets this winter.

So, I would ask the Minister what specific steps we'll be taking this winter in the light of the current circumstances—the progress made, but ongoing challenges—to help people and to prevent them sleeping rough and help them get off the streets. Also, the action plan notes the need for wide-reaching legislative reform, and I wonder whether the Minister could give an indication of when she hopes this legislation might be brought before the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, John. I very much welcome the committee's engagement on this, and I look forward to discussing both the public audit report with you, and, indeed, the future commissioner has recently done a housing report as well, which I know the committee is aware of. I look forward to discussing that with the committee in my next evidence session.

Just in terms of the specifics, the support for rough-sleepers—I should have answered in response to Mabon as well—we have outreach workers who get to every single person who hasn't come into services to make sure that we know who they are and that they're contacted. It's not just as simple as finding them a space to live—and I know that the committee and other Members know that—many of these people who are sleeping rough have very complex needs and a deep distrust of public services and so on. So, the outreach workers, who are amazing people, need to get the trust of that person and slowly coax them into accepting services and then eventually a place to stay. The local authorities are under a duty to give everyone a place to stay. Let me note that we're not—. The local authorities are not under any instruction to keep people on the streets or anything. We are not accepting night shelters; there is no need for that kind of provision. Support services can be given to people who have a bed and a room; there's absolutely no need for the kinds of night shelters we used to see. But some people have complex needs and they will not be able to come indoors, so we work very hard with the outreach workers to make sure that they have all of the help that they're able to take given their circumstances and that coaxing continues to make sure that people come in, especially when the weather gets very, very cold.

It is sad to see the number of rough-sleepers climb a little, but we have got those outreach workers getting to them and we are very keen to get them in and into services as soon as possible. And one of the heartwarming things about the pandemic was the people you met who were very distrustful, but who came in in the pandemic and accessed services for the first time and are now back on the road to recovery, which is really great.

In terms of the legislative burden, we will be putting a White Paper out towards the end of next year, the beginning of the year after, which sets out the legislative framework that we need, but the committee will be aware of it—we need to reform the housing Act and we need to do things around priority need and intentionality and all the things that the committee will be familiar with in order to remove those barriers to housing and to place legislative duties on the local authority to give people permanent housing. So, there'll be a White Paper that I look forward to discussing with the committee in due course. 

Thank you, Minister, for bringing today's statement here to the Chamber today. Certainly, the motives behind the action plan I certainly welcome—the desire to tackle homelessness as quickly as possible is certainly something that I'm sure we'd all want to support. Specifically, I was pleased to see the mention within the action mentioned in the statement of the opportunity for those longer tenancies, especially with, as you mentioned, the private sector landlords who could be worked with more closely, which would actually support both the landlords and those who need that space. 

I just want to focus briefly on part of your statement, and I'll quote, saying:

'This is not just a housing issue. Responsibility for ending homelessness extends beyond the dedicated homelessness and housing teams and departments; it must and will be based on an all-public-services response.'

And you go on to say that:

'This makes ending homelessness a cross-sector, cross-Government priority relevant to health, social services, education'— et cetera, et cetera. And I absolutely agree with that. So, with that in mind, Minister, of the 16 actions in the high-level action plan, which of those do you think will do the best job of ensuring that those other ares of responsibility, of public service, will not further exacerbate some of the issues that we see in homelessness?

Yes, it's a thread, isn't it, that runs through the action plan. So, in the preamble, we talk—. The action plan isn't my action plan; it's the homelessness action group's plan presented to us, but we're very happy to accept it and I think it's an excellent plan of action. But, for us, it's the golden thread that runs through it that each person must have their needs met. So, until you see that person in front of you, you don't know what those needs are.

Now, for somebody who's recently fallen out of housing, their primary need probably is just another place to have a permanent home. But some people are very far from that—they need help with income support; they need mental health and substance abuse support; they need help with actually being able to manage their life so that they can sustain a tenancy, they can pay their bills, understand their rent and all of the rest of it. So, there's an enormous spectrum of things that you need.

As I was saying in response to Mabon, Housing First, for example, will be part of that, but that will be for people with a large amount of needs who are very far from being able to self-sustain; for others, it is just the ability to access another decent, secure tenancy. So, I suppose it's hard to say, 'Action 5 requires—'. It's a thread running through it that each action will be appropriate to the person in front of you and that you're meeting that person's—or that family's, quite often—needs. And the family may have more complex needs as a group.

Then I cannot emphasise enough the preventative part of the agenda—so, getting upstream of that, identifying people who are in those difficulties and making sure that they get the support to stay in their family unit, where at all possible, or be supported if that family unit is breaking up for some reason, so that we don't get them going into homelessness provision at all. That is a very important part of that.

The whole agenda that my colleague Lynne Neagle talks about a lot, about adverse childhood experiences and so on—and I know in a previous life you've been very involved in that—those things are very important. So, in talking to the young man I spoke to yesterday, it was clear that you could do a case study on what adverse childhood experiences had caused this young man to have a very chaotic early start in life, and yet he is clearly capable of being a very upstanding and valued member of the community.

So, what we need to do is to get ahead of some of those other issues, and that's what I mean by, 'It's not just about your house.' If you've got very poor parenting skills, then your child is much more likely to become homeless than if you don't, so helping the parents to parent those children in the first place, for example, would prevent quite a lot of the homelessness that we see.  

I welcome the statement by the Minister and the action plan. I agree with the Minister that homelessness extends well beyond access and the availability of affordable homes, but does the Minister agree that the availability of affordable homes is a major part of the solution? 

Does the Welsh Government accept Shelter's definition of homelessness, which extends beyond those sleeping on the street to those staying with friends, staying in a hostel, staying at a B&B or a night shelter, living in poor conditions affecting their health or living apart from immediate family?

Will the Minister join me in congratulating The Wallich and other third sector organisations within Swansea on the work they're doing, and also the support provided by organisations such as Matt's Cafe, which is in the Swansea West constituency, which I know the Minister knows well?

But I think, really, every time we start talking about things, we can end up talking about money. Does the Minister agree that all that needs to be done requires additional funding, especially to the housing support grant and the social housing grant? 

Finally, it is by an accident that those of us sat in here are not those on the street.

Yes, thank you very much, Mike. I completely agree that house building is fundamental to this, of course, and social house building. One of the reasons we have the ambitious 20,000 target for homes for social rent is exactly because of that. We absolutely have to have the supply to meet the demand.

But, you know, it's not just about the roof and walls, although that roof and walls should be the best roof and walls that we can possibly put in place, and I'm delighted to say that our low-carbon social housing is the best in Europe as well, so, when you get your permanent home it's a very good home that you'll be very pleased to live in. This is not—. In fact, one of the things we enjoin our private sector partners to do is to build to the standard of our social housing. I can see my colleague Jenny Rathbone here—I can anticipate the question she's asking in her head. We will be bringing forward the building regulations to make sure that we force them to do so next year.

So, I completely agree with you. I'm very happy to say very good things about The Wallich. The young man I was speaking of, who I met in your constituency yesterday, Mike, was working for The Wallich and helping with all of the good work he does. Matt's Cafe is, counterintuitively, run by an excellent young man called Tom. It's in St Matthew's Church and it's Matt's Cafe, and it's an excellent drop-in centre for anyone associated with homelessness or homelessness support. And it provides excellent food, and if you're able to pay for it, you can, and if you aren't able to pay for it, then you can have it for whatever you can afford or for nothing, and it's a commendable service we look to spread out. It's a very good example of a place that's friendly and welcoming, but which also allows you to access all the myriad services that you might require in order to get your life back on track.

So, Matt's Cafe is a classic example of examples right around Wales where a host of services come together, so GPs, the outreach nurses, the drug addiction and substance abuse people, the mental health people, healthy living and eating people, relationships—all sorts of things you can find at Matt's Cafe. I feel as if I'm going to break into a rock song, although I think that one was called 'Alison's Cafe'. But I cannot commend that model enough, and it works really well for the centre of Swansea.

In terms of finance, we gave the most generous housing support grant ever in the last financial year, and despite the temptation by every Member of the Senedd to do so, I'm not going to anticipate the draft budget, so you will have to just wait until my colleague Rebecca Evans says more about the next budget. But we are already at the point where we've got the most supportive housing support grant ever. And in terms of the definition, absolutely, and that's why the numbers have gone up so dramatically. This isn't about rough-sleeping; this is about anyone who does not have a permanent home where they can feel safe and well. 

Minister, as the nights draw in and temperatures plummet, community groups such as Pride in Pill in my city, in my region of South Wales East, have been going out on these cold nights providing people with clothing and food in these freezing temperatures, to rough-sleepers. They do an absolutely sterling job and never miss a night going out because of the cold; in fact, it makes them more determined to go out. I'm sure you'll join me in thanking this group and others in my region of South Wales East for all that they do in providing help for those rough-sleepers. When I was out with them myself, I've never seen so many people in the centre of Newport, Minister. It was quite worrying, and these people were housed during the pandemic and now they're back on the street. 

So, I'm just wondering what urgent action you're taking to help those particular people this winter, so they don't have to endure any more cold nights. First Minister—. Minister, sorry—I'll pre-empt that. [Laughter.] Minister, the proposals you've put out today, as my colleagues have said, we welcome. We welcome anything that's going to tackle homelessness, particularly this post-pandemic response that you've made. We all have the same objective and it's good that you've recognised that it needs to be a cross-sector, cross-Government priority.

The proposals that you've put out do require a momentous change and demand incentives because of your Government's utter—

You need to ask your second and final question now. 

—failure in tackling homelessness over the last two decades. So, in your proposals, do you think there are enough incentives there to ensure the speed at which we need to see this turnover?

And when it comes to supporting people—my last question—to live in temporary accommodation, the Welsh Government guidelines have allowed local authorities to end their duty of care to house them for the most minor infractions, such as failing to turn up for an appointment to view a property even though it was no fault of their own—a bus not turning up or childcare issues. Whilst these are isolated and rare occurrences, I would like clarification, Minister, that these proposals you're putting forward today will prevent these sorts of things happening in the future. Thank you. 

Well, Laura Anne Jones, you started really well and then you went rather downhill. So, we have not failed to tackle homelessness. Wales has a very proud record of tackling homelessness, and in the pandemic, we have done considerably better than our neighbours that you support over the border. So, I'm not taking any of that nonsense from you.

Just to be very clear, at this point in time, the local authority that you're talking about in Wales has a duty to house people who are sleeping rough. They all have outreach workers. There may be issues why that person cannot take advantage of that, but the local authority is under a duty to house those people. They're not able to say that they cannot and they are funded accordingly. So, there is no excuse for that.

What we are not doing is helping—. So, I am very grateful to the volunteers who, from the best possible motives, are helping people sleeping rough. But what we've got to do is switch the system away from supporting people on the street to supporting them in housing. So, the local authority is under a duty to house those people, so they should be doing so. If you want to write to me with any specific incidences you're aware of, I'd be more than happy to take it up with the council. But they are supposed to do that already.

The intentionality that you mentioned slightly further on in your contribution is what I'm talking about in terms of the legislative change that we need to see. So, we need to fundamentally reform the Housing (Wales) Act 2014, which has priority need and intentionality included in it. We will need to do that with a White Paper and then some fundamental reform, which, obviously, the Senedd will have to approve, and we will take through in the normal way. So, we need to do quite a radical cultural change, you're quite right. But as we speak right now, the local authority is under a duty to house those people, and it should be doing so.

And finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. Thank you very much for your statement and I fully support what you're trying to do. But I think, just following up on what others have said—. First of all, I want to pay tribute to Cardiff Council's outreach workers, who go out week after week, trying to persuade people to come in and not be on the streets. This is a really, really complex field for many people. I appreciate that, for some, it is about insecure accommodation and a lack of money to pay rent, but for those who have suffered adverse childhood experiences, this is a really complicated issue, as Jonathan Lewis's story in the Western Mail this morning illustrates. So, organisations like the Wallich and Llamau do incredibly experienced work in enabling people to come in and then not go back onto the streets. And it is not a magic wand of giving them a house.

So, I want to ask you about the cost of the support that's required for people who've got into addiction problems as a result of their emotional distress. Llamau, when I last spoke to the chief executive, had such low recidivism rates; 92 per cent of the people they work with never return to being homeless, whereas I know that with other agencies dealing with homeless people, 70 per cent of these people are through a revolving door. And there is a real debate going on in Cardiff at the moment about what we can afford to support these people.

You need to ask a question.

So, I just wondered what analysis the Welsh Government has done on the cost-effectiveness of different approaches to supporting homeless people, to ensure that they truly never become homeless again.

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for those excellent points. And the answer is a really complicated one because, as I said, it really depends on the person that you're talking about, because every individual has a different and complex set of needs. The further away from having had a permanent home they are, the more complex the needs. It isn't just a case of giving you four walls and a roof. If you put me in a flat in the middle of Manchester, where I know no-one, or any other city where I know no-one, and I had no means of support and no furniture, I would be unlikely to sustain my accommodation, and I haven't had all of those experiences. So, we just need to treat people like human beings.

We have done an analysis of the costs of some of the programmes. But in the end, what we've got to commit to is making sure that that individual has the support that they need. And for some people, that works fairly quickly, and for others, it can take—. I've spoken to outreach workers who've been working with people for more than two years, trying to get them to respond to them, gain some trust, even take a cup of tea off them—so deep is the distrust of officialdom or help. But then, during the pandemic, we've had transformational cases as well, with people who came in because of the pandemic suddenly getting into services and their lives are on a different path. And Jonathan, the person in the Western Mail, is the person I met yesterday. If ever you needed proof that this isn't about the individual and their fundamental nature, this is about the experience you have growing up and what your life experience is, and it can be transformed.

So, for example, we have a great pathway in Cardiff prison, where we had a revolving door, as you call it, with people coming in and out all the time. We've been able to work very individually with a number of individuals—that's a very small cohort of them—to just see if it works, and well over 90 per cent of them are now on the path to not coming back and are in permanent housing. So, what we have to do is we have to do what works. So, this isn't about my housing budget; this is about me working with Eluned and other colleagues right across the Welsh Government, using their budgets and their staff to provide the services to people who also have housing problems. If we see it like that, in that holistic way, we take a very different approach and it does work.

Thank you, Minister. Before we move on, I will call Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to apologise to you, Dirprwy Lywydd, for failing to declare an interest at the beginning of the debate and my contribution. I want to draw your attention to my declaration of interest on the ownership of property, which, of course, is in the public domain. Thank you.