6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The legislative consent process

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:01 pm on 15 December 2021.

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Photo of Alun Davies Alun Davies Labour 4:01, 15 December 2021

I can understand that you want to make another speech rescuing your situation, but this isn't the opportunity to do that, I'm afraid.

In terms of where we are, what you do of course when you scrutinise an LCM is that you scrutinise the LCM, the memorandum; you don't scrutinise the legislation, and that is the key failure of this system. It's not in any way—. I don't think you can easily compare it to the old LCO system at all, where you were debating the principle of legislation and the legislative competence; you're here discussing legislation itself, a Bill.

The examples I will give to Darren are the examples that we debated yesterday in terms of leasehold reform, and another LCM that we will discuss in a few weeks' time around building safety. We haven't had the opportunity to scrutinise any of the provisions that are in those pieces of legislation. What we've done is to scrutinise the memorandum where the Welsh Government have said they want to give the power to a Westminster Parliament to legislate. We know, and you've got to be a very, very overly kind individual, I would suggest, if you believe there will be any scrutiny of Welsh Government legislation in Westminster. They barely scrutinise their own legislation across there, let alone the legislation that is being suggested by the Welsh Government. You've got to be a very, very kind individual—I know Christmas is coming, but you take things to an extreme at certain times. So, this is about proper parliamentary scrutiny of legislation, and I would have anticipated that every Member of the opposition would want and expect the highest levels of scrutiny of any sort of Government legislation.

I welcome very much what the Counsel General has said this afternoon, but, you know, you mention Rhys speaking like a preacher in a chapel, but I must say to you, Counsel General, what I learnt from my chapel upbringing was that you've got to live your beliefs. It's not enough to bend the knee on a Sunday evening or a Sunday morning, you've got to live those beliefs on a Monday morning as well, I'm afraid, Counsel General, and the Government is not doing that at the moment. The Welsh Government is not doing that.

It is not sufficient to say that the Welsh Government has a packed legislative programme when we only have two Government Bills in front of this place. Neither of them are—well, one of them is a significant Bill, the second isn't a significant Bill, and then we have a private Member's Bill. If it is the case that the Government cannot pursue more than two pieces of legislation at any one time, then the Government should say that and should explain why, and the Government should also invest in the resources to enable it to have the resources to pursue more legislation. The Government has control of its own budget and the Government needs to recognise that. We have the right, therefore, to scrutinise that legislation and not simply scrutinise the subcontracting of legislation to another place.

But I'm grateful, Deputy Presiding Officer, to everybody who has taken part in the debate. In his two contributions on this matter this week Huw Irranca-Davies, I think, has showed the power of proper parliamentary scrutiny. The work done by the legislation and justice committee on these matters, that is not work that can be put aside by Government; it's work that must be recognised by Government. The power of the argument that I thought that Huw Irranca-Davies made yesterday in the debate on the LCM is something that the Government, I hope, would reflect very, very seriously on.

I recognise the points that Rhys has made and the points that the Counsel General has made, about the conflict, and I think it is a conflict, between the Governments in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland to a lesser extent, and Westminster. I think there is a serious issue about Westminster not recognising the mandate of Members elected here, and our right to govern, our right to legislate. I think there is a serious issue here.

I also think the Welsh Government's case would be more powerful if the Welsh Government used the legislation and the processes in this place in a way that recognised our rights, as well as exercise those rights in debate with the United Kingdom Government. I'm particularly disappointed that the Welsh Government has not sought to use expedited processes where it believes that expedited legislation is necessary.