7. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: Legal Aid and Access to Justice

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:48 pm on 18 January 2022.

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Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 5:48, 18 January 2022

Thank you for those questions. Just in terms of engagement, well, of course, there's a lot of engagement that has been taking place to have discussions around a lot of these issues with the judiciary. The judiciary, of course, cannot engage in the political aspects, but it's important to engage in those areas where we can give support to collaborative issues, just like we have done with the drug and alcohol courts. 

In terms of advice services, well, of course, the advice services that we are funding and setting up, which I think have handled something like well over—. Well, nearly 300,000 issues have been resolved for 130,000 people. That is significant, although it isn't a long-term solution to, I think, a more fundamental reform that's required. And that's why I think the devolution of legal aid was recognised by the Thomas commission, because it recognised the integration of all those services, how they all had to come together in order to have a cohesive justice system and a support system. Of course, we don't have many of those particular levers, so we make the input that we can out of our own resources in a non-devolved area, and it is important. But you do recognise—. It's the very point that you made later, actually, with the tribunals, in terms of the fact that, certainly from poorer communities, there will probably be less accessing of those rights. It was very interesting to note in the Bellamy report, of course, that something like 53 per cent of people who are entitled to criminal legal aid in police stations don't actually access it. I think there is some work that needs to be done to look at why that is—whether they can't actually access a lawyer, or whether it is the case that people are just not still aware of their rights or being informed of their rights when they're in that particular situation.

With regard to the issue of universities and law schools, yes, that is very important. That's why I was so pleased that my predecessor, Jeremy Miles, started this process. Again, it was a recommendation of the Thomas commission, and I was glad to be able to launch the first meeting of it and to continue to support it. It has had its first meeting. And that is the Law Council of Wales, which I think is a very important initiative.

In terms of the tribunals, I think it's very important that we do not have—. I don't think they are this, but I think that we can move further about the issue of non-adversariality, whereby the role of the tribunal panel is there to give the assistance to ensure the just outcome, rather than it being an adversarial battle between two different sides, often which may be differently resourced.

In terms of other systems, when I was in Scotland, I met with the president of the Court of Sessions there. Of course, the courts are tribunals are devolved there. I think that there are some very interesting ways in which they have approached justice, because they have that devolution of justice. If we had the same devolution of justice that Scotland has, there are initiatives that we could be taking now that Scotland has taken in respect of legal aid, in respect of access, in respect of the way that the courts and tribunals service is operating, to deliver a better service. So, I think there's an interesting debate and discussion that could take place there, because Scotland, in many ways, shows how these things could be done better.

This is not just an issue for Wales and Scotland. There are parts of England where the devolution of justice in areas of England would be beneficial, where you pull together—. The same argument applies in terms of the interlinking of those services with the justice system. So, we're not making a case that is solely about Wales in that respect, but in terms of how we can actually deliver justice better. That is the case, I think, that I and the Minister for Social Justice are working on to deliver.