Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy – in the Senedd at 1:45 pm on 19 January 2022.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:45, 19 January 2022

(Translated)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. First of all, Conservative spokesperson, Paul Davies. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, businesses across Wales, of course, welcomed the announcement on Friday by the Welsh Government to ease COVID restrictions in Wales over the next two weeks. That announcement was particularly welcomed by businesses in the hospitality and night-time sectors who have faced great hardship, not just over the past few weeks, but through the whole pandemic. The struggles still felt by those sectors still exist with the sustainability of some businesses still threatened and the possibility of jobs being lost. Minister, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the restrictions on hospitality and night-time industries in Wales? How confident are you that the current package of support from the Welsh Government is sufficient enough to cover the costs borne by businesses as a result of these restrictions? 

Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 1:46, 19 January 2022

As a result of the protective measures, we know that a number of business sectors were not able to trade. And, of course, we required some businesses to close, as well as requiring other parts of hospitality that were open to operate in a different way. That's why we've provided the support we did. We announced that support at the time when those protective measures were being taken and announced. I've had direct engagement with the hospitality sector, including the night-time industry, and they've been very upfront about the challenges they face and the direct impact they have on their businesses, on the people who run and manage those businesses, and, indeed, on their workers. There are some people who are genuinely fearful for the future, because we're at a point where many businesses have challenges about their access to cash, as well as their ability to look forward to a different sort of trading environment. I do take seriously the concerns that are directly put to me and the direct engagement my officials have. That's why we have looked at the way in which we can make the forms of support we have slightly easier to obtain, and slightly more generous. It's also why we're continuing to work with the sector to try to make sure that we are supporting viable businesses as the trading conditions will change, and as I hope the confidence of customers will change, and people will come back to support good local businesses, both those that perhaps younger members of a different age cohort to myself and Mr Davies may want to use more regularly, as well as the wider range of businesses that we know have been directly affected by the necessary measures we've taken at this stage in the pandemic. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:48, 19 January 2022

Minister, as we look forward, it is important that the Welsh Government spells out exactly how it's going to support the sustainability of the sector for the future in the form of a specific strategy. As part of that strategy, the Welsh Government should look at some of the underlying challenges facing the sector prior to the pandemic and consider what lessons it can learn from the COVID pandemic, to ensure that the sector's sustainability is not threatened in the future. Of course, as we move out of the pandemic, the Welsh Government must reconsider the need for COVID passes, and, at the very least, confirm what criteria will need to be met before they are scrapped. Minister, given that COVID passes have been proven ineffective in keeping nightclubs and similar settings open, which was the whole basis, incidentally, of the Government introducing these passes in the first place, what steps now are you taking to roll back COVID passes, and instead work up industry-backed solutions to support the hospitality and night-time sectors in the short and medium term? 

Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 1:49, 19 January 2022

When it comes to a future strategy, we are looking at what could take place in a range of different sectors. So, we're looking at a retail strategy, and we're looking at the strategy—to revisit it—for the visitor economy. That in itself will make a difference for a range of people in the hospitality sector. The two sectors are obviously linked to a significant regard. I'm also entirely open to see whether we need to do more around the events section of that, or, indeed, the night-time economy specifically. So, I'm open-minded about where we can have a useful and productive conversation. But we start from a good basis, because we do have regular engagement with people who lead and run those businesses, and there are honest conversations about challenges as well as about the levers available to us to support them. 

When it comes to the second part of your question about COVID passes, I think a number of the assertions made by the Member are simply not correct. When it comes to the introduction of COVID passes, it was on the basis that this was a useful way to manage risk and that it would help to keep businesses open for longer, because the alternative was that, to manage the public health position, there would have been further interruption and potential closures in sectors. It was about avoiding those closures and keeping those businesses open. The fact that we nevertheless had to take further steps, including the recent measures, doesn't mean that COVID passes have failed; it actually shows the strength and the impact of the omicron wave in particular in overtopping all of those defences. When you see the eye-wateringly high numbers of cases that came about, I just think it is a wholly erroneous and not terribly intellectually honest argument to say that COVID passes failed because we nevertheless had to take further measures to protect public health. I look forward to engaging with the public health advice on when COVID passes are no longer a proportionate measure to help protect public health, but there's no evidence to date it's had a significant impact on the profitability of businesses where they have been introduced.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:51, 19 January 2022

Minister, the reality is that COVID passes have had a huge impact on the night-time economy, with some evidence showing that on average the cost to implement COVID passes per week was around £400. This would represent an annual cost of £20,000 per year. And let's not forget that these venues have been forced to shut despite the promise that COVID passes would keep them open. Today, a judicial review is being sought over the continued roll-out of COVID passes in Wales despite there being no evidence that they meet their objectives. 

Minister, these sectors are integral to us all. They're important cultural assets that promote and raise awareness of emerging new artists and musicians. They are significant employers to people, in particular many young people, and hospitality settings are often important community assets. Yet, this pandemic has been a hospitality horror story with many businesses struggling for survival and feeling let down by Governments. 

The UK Government has published its own strategy for the sector, focusing on reopening, recovery and resilience, and it's vital now that the Welsh Government do the same for the sector here in Wales. So, Minister, can you tell us what the Welsh Government's long-term thinking is for these sectors post pandemic and how you're championing these sectors' roles as hubs for community well-being as we emerge from the pandemic? Can you also confirm exactly how much money the Welsh Government has allocated from the budget to invest in resilience measures for these sectors in the future?

Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 1:52, 19 January 2022

I think there were three particular questions there. On the first part, I simply don't agree with the Member's view around COVID passes and their impact. They're a measure that has helped us to keep sectors open where we would otherwise have had to introduce further protections that would have affected their ability to trade. We're just not going to agree on that. 

When it comes to the future for the sector, I'm optimistic about the future for the sector, because we are looking to come out of this phase of the pandemic, because I look forward to the pandemic being a point of history rather than the day-to-day reality that Ministers still have to manage. But in particular, when you come to the spring and the summer, when conditions have been much more benign, you can look forward to a bounce back in a range of activities. We've seen the way, as I said earlier, the visitor economy has made a really big difference, with more people coming to Wales, more people going into different businesses. The biggest challenge for many of those businesses has been having enough staff to cope with the demand that's come in. That's part of the challenge about having a tighter labour market that is nothing to do with the COVID pass or indeed the choices that this Government has made. I'm keen to have conversations with the sector so I don't try to impose a strategy on them, and that works in tandem with the work we are doing with a range of other businesses. We're in good shape to do that, as I've previously suggested.

When it comes to future funds being allocated, the reality is that if we have a further emergency situation we'll look to further emergency funding measures. We'd actually look for the UK Treasury to step up and do its job if any part of the UK needed to take further steps to protect public health. As the Member knows, in the draft budget unveiled by the finance Minister, it sets out a wide range of spending measures and it also makes clear we're using the maximum amount of resource we have available to help kick-start the economy and to support public services. I look forward to a full debate on the final budget. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:54, 19 January 2022

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson—Luke Fletcher.

Photo of Luke Fletcher Luke Fletcher Plaid Cymru 1:55, 19 January 2022

Diolch, Llywydd. We know that people and workers in Wales are currently living through a cost-of-living crisis, which is only set to get worse. The UK inflation rate is currently at 5.4 per cent—the highest rate in 30 years—with increases expected to continue, peaking at 6 per cent in spring 2022. These high inflation rates are considerably higher than current wage growth, which has been around 4 per cent in the second half of 2021. This means that real wages are falling and are expected to continue to fall compared to prices. In fact, wages are not expected to grow significantly until the end of 2022, and, even by 2025, real wages will be nearly £800 lower than they would have been if pre-pandemic growth had taken place. This is also disproportionately affecting those on low incomes, with nearly a third of households on low incomes seeing their income fall since May 2021. The Minister touched on this in an answer to a previous question, but given that workers are working the same or more hours, given that workers are earning less money in real terms and have a lower ability to buy the necessities they need, could the Minister set out what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that workers on the minimum wage see an increase in their wages during this cost-of-living crisis?

Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 1:56, 19 January 2022

The Member has highlighted the point that wages have been falling in real terms, and that's a point that, of course, Jayne Bryant highlighted in the first question today—that real wages have fallen. The figures out in the last few days are of real concern. It should be of real concern to all of us. I've highlighted before some of the measures that this Government has taken in areas where we think the UK Government should have acted but we have chosen to act to try to support families. To give you the example of the £51 million that Rebecca Evans and Jane Hutt previously announced, the support we're giving to help people pay up to £100 of their winter fuel household bill should help about 350,000 households in Wales. It's not a small measure; it's got significant reach. So, we are looking at where our powers exist and where our resources exist to allow us to support families.

When it comes to the minimum wage, we're clear that we want Wales to be a high-wage economy. We want to see the living wage adopted in more sectors. You'll see that in the way in which we're working through the public sector. The health Minister will have more to say, of course, about our programme for government commitment to deliver the real living wage in the social care sector. That will make a huge difference to a sector that employs large numbers of women, often in low-paid work. And, of course, that is money that is unlikely to disappear out of the country—it's money that's likely to be recircling and spent on local families and then local jobs as well. So, we are trying to take a leadership role in seeing rises in wages, and we certainly want to see workers' wages keep pace, at the very least, with inflation. But all of those things are under threat if the UK Treasury refuses to act. I hope the distractions on other matters on the other end of the M4 can be resolved, so we can at last have a responsible Government with responsible and decent leadership that recognises that the cost-of-living crisis is here and needs action.

Photo of Luke Fletcher Luke Fletcher Plaid Cymru 1:58, 19 January 2022

Of course. There are, of course, many things that can be done to address, specifically, workers' well-being and pay during this cost-of-living crisis, all of which requires swift and decisive actions from Government, not just in Cardiff, but also in Westminster.

Of course, the Minister will be aware of my and a number of cross-party colleagues' support for universal basic income, and I'm sure that the Minister has read, with great interest, the report produced by the Petitions Committee on a proposed UBI trial in Wales. Those of us who are supporting an increased trial for UBI also believe that UBI should be part of a policy package. On Monday, a four-day working week trial was launched by Autonomy, 4 Day Week UK and 4 Day Week Global. There are many known benefits to the four-day working week, such as increased productivity, improved employee well-being, and improvements in gender equality in the workplace. Microsoft trialled the four-day working week in one of their offices and found a 40 per cent increase in productivity. A poll conducted by the Scottish Government found that 80 per cent of the Scottish public thought this would improve their well-being.

What we're seeing globally is a number of trials progressing, both on UBI and the four-day work week, and whilst we have our own UBI trial here in Wales on the cards, we have yet to see the Welsh Government consider a trial for a four-day working week. Whilst I understand that Government wishes to watch closely what happens in other countries first, we are missing an opportunity here—an opportunity to push ahead with progressive policies in a way that means that they will be implemented here in Wales sooner rather than later. Would the Minister agree that we have nothing to lose in conducting our own four-day work week trial here in Wales at the earliest opportunity?

Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 1:59, 19 January 2022

When it comes to both UBI and the four-day working week—and, of course, Jack Sargeant has a question on four-day working week trials coming up later today—we are interested in what is happening. We have nothing to lose from reviewing the evidence in other parts of the world and seeing how comparable it is. We always have challenges about how we prioritise Government resources that are limited, and are undertaking trials that are meaningful and worth while, and can tell us something about what may be able to apply in the future, and how widely spread that opportunity may be as well. It's why the universal basic income pilot is a pilot to learn more, and the First Minister has been very clear—it's a pilot that initially targets a group of people where we know that there are not great outcomes for those people in the wider economy, to learn more about how we can support that group potentially, and then whether it could be successfully applied in a wider area. And, of course, that's the whole point of pilots—to learn what works, sometimes to learn what doesn't work, and then to see if we can apply it more widely and more successfully. So, I retain an open mind and a real interest in learning from action in this country, across these islands and, indeed, from further afield as well. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:01, 19 January 2022

(Translated)

Question 3 [OQ57461] has been withdrawn, so question 4, Jack Sargeant.