The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the names of Alun Davies, Hefin David, Jack Sargeant, Rhys ab Owen and supported by Carolyn Thomas.

The next item, therefore, is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on public transport in rural areas, and I call on James Evans to move the motion. James Evans.

Motion NDM7880 James Evans, Jack Sargeant, Samuel Kurtz, Natasha Asghar, Rhys ab Owen, Carolyn Thomas, Mabon ap Gwynfor

Supported by Paul Davies, Peter Fox

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes that 101 million bus journeys were undertaken in Wales in 2018-19, compared to 129 million in 2004-05.

2. Further notes that 23 per cent of people in Wales do not have access to a car or van.

3. Recognises that public transport is essential in rural Wales to prevent isolation and loneliness.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) provide sustainable long-term funding for local authorities to enhance rural bus services;

b) ensure rural councils receive a fair share of future investment for public transport and active travel schemes;

c) guarantee the National Bus Strategy for Wales considers the unique challenges of public transport in rural Wales.

d) prioritise investing in zero-emissions public transport vehicles in rural areas.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to move the motion in the names of my co-submitters and myself.

This debate is an issue that all MSs know all too well about. We are contacted by residents in our constituencies all the time who are having issues with accessing local transport and ask us what we can do to improve the services. I was overwhelmed to get wide-ranging, cross-party support for this motion, as I think it shows the maturity of this Parliament that we can all work together for the common good of the people of Wales. I was disappointed to see an amendment to this motion, and I'll touch on that later on. I hope today that we can share some ideas together to move forward to improve lives and improve public transport in Wales. 

Living in rural Wales, as I and many others do, really is a blessing. It's a place untouched by much of modern society, and it is a landscape that people from all over the world come to admire. From the beautiful Brecon Beacons and Elan valley in my constituency to the coast of Pembrokeshire, up to the mountains of Snowdonia and along the shores of the picturesque north Wales coast, our nation is overwhelmingly rural, and politicians of all colours must remember that those living rurally have vastly different needs from those who dwell in more urbanised areas.

The National Federation of Women's Institutes has a campaign called 'Get on Board' to raise awareness of the importance of local bus services. They commissioned a report to explore the impacts of the significant reductions in local bus services that we have seen in recent years. Findings show that around one in five of their survey respondents living in rural areas have access to a frequent, reliable bus service; 25 per cent of respondents said that cuts to bus services have made them feel more isolated; and 19 per cent said their mental health had been negatively affected. Cuts to rural bus services have also meant a decrease in being able to connect to other modes of public transport and, as a result, 72 per cent said that their dependency on using a car and a reliance on family and friends has increased, and this has been at a cost to our fragile climate. 

In 2004-05, 129 million bus journeys were undertaken in Wales, compared with only 101 million in 2018-19. This shows a significant drop in the people using public transport. This could be for a number of reasons: a reduction in the quality of the service, more access to cars and private transport, and sometimes a reluctance to wait for public transport. It could be for a number of reasons. But people who rely on public services as their sole mode of transport deserve a strong, well-funded, regular service. Approximately 80 per cent of bus users do not have access to a car, and 23 per cent of those people in Wales do not have access to a car or van. So, reliable public transport is vital.

Communities like Trecastle in the west of my constituency have seen their bus service reduce to a taxi service pre COVID and now no service at all, and that's on a Welsh Government trunk road. I met with Women's Institute members in Whitton, who saw their bus service cease in 2015, following the closure of a local school. They all now find themselves stranded in rural isolation, reliant on friends and neighbours for lifts to the nearest town for shopping and the usual things from the shops.

The data is clear: we all know that socialising and having access to meet with people keeps our mental health strong and prevents isolation and loneliness. The people in those communities deserve to have a guaranteed service that is sustainable for the long term, and funding for local authorities should be a top priority for Welsh Government in public transport. I know this area well as I was previously a cabinet member in the most rural council in Wales. And, if funding could be guaranteed in the long term, it would give the council and the people accessing those services a real sense of security and help them plan for the long term, and help us on the route to net zero.

We're also seeing the modernisation of public transport across the United Kingdom. Zero-emission vehicles are being rolled out across various areas of public sector transport. This move is vital to ensuring Wales plays its part in tackling climate change, and ensuring Wales continues to have clean air for our citizens across the nation.

I noted that my colleague Alun Davies and others have tabled an amendment to this motion, and I do think it's a shame, as it's making this motion overly political when there is no need for it to be so. They're blaming Margaret Thatcher and the Conservative Government for the deregulation of bus services way back in 1986, which was almost 40 years ago. If deregulation was so awful, why did the Labour Governments under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown not reverse these decisions between 1997 and 2009? And I hope that the people who have put the amendment forward can answer that when they make their contributions.

To conclude, I look forward to hearing the debate from across the Chamber today. This is a very important topic that needs to come above party politics, because it's vital we improve public transport for all of the people right across Wales. Diolch.  

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Alun Davies to move amendment 1, tabled in his name and those of Hefin David, Jack Sargeant and Rhys ab Owen. Alun Davies. 

Amendment 1—Alun Davies, Hefin David, Jack Sargeant, Rhys ab Owen

Supported by Carolyn Thomas

Add as new point at end of motion:

Recognises the damage done by the privatisation of bus services in the 1980s and calls upon the Welsh Government to bring forward legislation to re-regulate bus services as a matter of urgency in this Senedd.

Amendment 1 moved.

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to the Member for Brecon and Radnor for putting forward the debate this afternoon, although I have to say to him that there are two areas that I take issue with in his introduction. The motion itself is one where I think most of us, and many of us, will agree, but there's no point—and as a Conservative, of course, you will agree with me—in pouring money into a public service that isn't working. We need reform, as well as more money. At the moment, there are many hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money supporting bus services across the whole of Wales, and the one thing we all agree on is that that money, if we doubled it, still wouldn't be sufficient and wouldn't be working. 

When I represented Mid and West Wales, one of the things I found was that people, wherever they lived in that region, wanted the same things, not different things. Somebody in rural Wales doesn't want a different public service environment to somebody who lives in the centre of Cardiff. What happens all too often is that they don't get the right services. People, what we found time and time again—. A fantastic introduction to this place when I was first elected was an inquiry we did on deprivation in rural Wales, and what we found, exactly as the Member has said for B and R, was that there were issues with public transport that meant that they weren't able to access public services in all sorts of different ways, but people wanted those same services, the services that I speak to people about today in Blaenau Gwent. And to try to create conflict between people in different parts of the country I don't think is the right way to deal with these things. What we need to do is agree the services that people want to see delivered, whether they live in the smallest village in Powys or in the centre of our capital city. We have to deliver those services, and it's how you deliver those services that is actually the crucial point at question here, not the services themselves.

And what Thatcher did in 1986 was to break the link between what the Member himself has described as vital public services and the people who use those services, because what happened with privatisation—. It didn't happen in London, of course, and that's the really key issue: if this was such an important policy and such a breakthrough in public policy, then surely London would have experienced the same as elsewhere, but they didn't do it in London because they knew that it wouldn't work, and it hasn't worked since then. We've seen the disruption and the decline in services as a consequence of that.

So, what we need to do is to fund local authorities properly, and I think this is one area of policy  where the corporate joint committees could work very well, actually, with local authorities working together to deliver services across a wider region. I think that could certainly be the case in the part of Wales I represent now in Gwent. But also, I think we need to look at the structure of the industry, because we are putting hundreds of millions of pounds into an industry that isn't working. It is not sensible to continue to fund an industry that isn't working, in a way, and to fund services without reform. And, for me, the re-regulation of buses is absolutely key. The Minister in this area has made commitments time and time again to not only more comprehensive public service offerings, but also multimodal public services. The only way you can achieve that is through public control and public regulation of those services.

So, we need to be able to do that. We need the tools, and I hope that the Welsh Government, in replying to this debate, will say that they are working with local government and with bus operators to ensure that we do have the tools available to us to ensure that the villages represented by the Member in B and R and the towns represented by me have the services that they require, at the times that they need those services, but also it's the quality of the services that are on offer. We all know that, quite often—. And I've seen down in Cardiff recently that there is a whole fleet of new electric buses there. It's fantastic. It's fantastic for the people of Cardiff. I want to see that in Blaenau Gwent, and why can't I see that in Blaenau Gwent? And why shouldn't you have that in Ceredigion or Brecon and Radnor or Conwy? Why shouldn't you have access to the same quality of service in all parts of Wales as you have in the centre of Cardiff? That is surely the ambition Government must have.

And what we should be doing, on this Wednesday afternoon, in bringing forward these debates and scrutinising the Government, is to say: what policy tools are you going to employ in order to achieve that? And there isn't a policy tool available to Government, with the exception of re-regulation, with the exception of public control, that is going to deliver the public services, in particular in rural Wales, that the Member says that he wants to achieve.

So, I will close, Deputy Presiding Officer, but one thing about good, high-quality public services that we all know is that they don't make money for people who don't use them. That means that we need public control of public services to ensure that the quality is available to people and, then, to co-ordinate those public services to deliver the services in all parts of Wales that the Member has described. And I hope that before this Senedd goes into the next election that we will have a bus Act on the statute book that will re-regulate the services and provide the foundation for the sort of high-quality public transport service that we can all be proud of. Thank you.

I'd like to thank my colleague James Evans for initiating this debate. It's a fact that 85 per cent of land in Wales is used for agriculture, forestry or as common land, and this is the same figure as England. However, whereas 18 per cent of the population in England lives in rural areas, the figure for Wales is 35 per cent. We know that practical and affordable public transport is difficult to provide in rural areas, but in my view I just cannot understand why this is the case in 2022. I spent over 10 years in London, where a bus comes between every five to 10 minutes, and whilst I appreciate in Wales we don't have the same number of residents as in London, I still can't get my head around that in some parts of Wales, particularly rural areas, it's only one bus per hour and in some cases much longer than that. There is no doubt that people living here in Wales are very much car dependent—

Natasha, will you take an intervention?

At the end, please, Deputy Presiding Officer, if that's okay. There is no doubt that people living here in Wales are very car dependent, as bus services are inadequate, infrequent or non-existent. It is a fact that a lack of a decent transport service undermines the economies of rural areas, which therefore makes it more difficult for people to access jobs and services. It also has environmental consequences, with the high level of car use compared to urban areas causing greater carbon emissions per head. From what I have seen first-hand to what I am hearing from constituents all across south-east Wales, and from the letters I am receiving from other parts of Wales, there has been a spiral of decline in bus services across Wales. The number of local bus journeys has fallen from 100 million a year in 2016-17 to 89 million in 2019-20. Rural bus services have particularly suffered as they carry fewer people per mile operated and are less secure economically. As a result, they are more at risk, whether they are operated commercially or are supported.

Before the pandemic, the Welsh Government's direct support for the bus network was largely focused on the bus services support grant. In 2014, they replaced a bus service operators grant with a bus services support grant, with funding set at £25 million. This fixed pot of £25 million has not changed since then. Why? It's evident that the funding per passenger for bus services in Wales in inadequate, and compares poorly with that provided for rail passengers.

With the decline of rural bus services, community transport schemes have tried to fill the gap. Community transport schemes are significant providers of transport in rural areas, and, there's no denying it, their detailed knowledge of their local market and enthusiasm to service their local communities is invaluable. However, community transport is not able to be self-sustaining in rural areas and requires support. Many operators are small and the sector has little capacity to meet increased demand without investment. Whereas community transport providers often meet specific needs to serve particular groups, they cannot provide a comprehensive rural public transport system.

Wales needs a strategy for rural public transport. Rural areas tend to have older populations and there will be other vulnerable people that have limited or no access to private transport. They cannot be abandoned and left to their own devices. The impact of social isolation on people's health and well-being, as we have seen during the pandemic, is considerable. The rural public transport strategy would start from the basis that all rural areas should have a public transport service that provides access to employment, education, health services, shopping and recreation. Based on this principle, there is an opportunity to rethink the provision of rural bus services, to recognise their importance, and provide all rural dwellers with the opportunity to access services.

The Welsh Government must recognise the importance of rural bus services, and provide the framework and funding necessary for their support. It's been over seven months since the Deputy Minister's road freeze, and we cannot just sit and wait for something to happen. Something needs to happen now to address the public needs, whether that be more co-operation with the London Government, or whether that needs to be something created by the Welsh Government itself. We need a consistent and long-term approach, taking into account the current and future needs, which doesn't just cater for a declining market, but allows public transport to grow and to thrive. Thank you so much. I'll take any questions or interventions now.

No, I think interventions are no longer asked for by—. The Member has finished her contribution now; you don't ask for interventions at the end of contributions. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, it's absolutely essential that the system is reformed as soon as it possibly can be. I think passengers the length and breadth of Wales have waited far too long for reforms to a broken system to take place, and it is unfortunate that we were unable to pursue those reforms in the previous Senedd term. I very much welcome the motion as amended, if it will be amended by colleagues. I think it's absolutely right and proper that we take this opportunity to debate such an important subject, which is regularly raised by all of our constituents. The ability to be able to get from A to B, whether it's from home to work, whether it's from home to an essential service such as a hospital or a GP surgery, is absolutely vital in maintaining a decent quality of life for people. Many people cannot afford a private vehicle, and an increasing number of people are choosing not to use a private vehicle, for the good of the natural environment. I very much welcome today's debate, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I look forward to hearing more contributions from colleagues across the Chamber.

Thank you to James Evans for putting forward this debate. I'm pleased to see this discussion about public transport continuing, after my debate last week. It's a vitally important issue, for a number of reasons, and it's important to those communities that I represent here in the Senedd. I'd also like to thank the Deputy Minister for his response to my debate last week, and for confirming that the Welsh Government is considering the motion put forward by the Liberal Democrats to introduce free public transport for every young person under the age of 25.

I agree with James that public transport continues to come under pressure. Unless there is properly funded and co-ordinated investment in public transport, communities, particularly rural communities, will be left behind. Since 2009, around a third of subsidised services in Wales have been lost, and we've seen a 22 per cent decline in the number of journeys by bus between 2008 and 2019. Future public transport policy and strategy must get to grips with sustainable funding, cost and accessibility, and financial support for decarbonisation and modal shift.

However, it will only be successful if solutions are designed on a place-by-place and community-by-community basis, and if they look at individual solutions that contribute to an effective public transport network across the whole of Wales. We do need solutions that are developed within rural communities and with rural communities, so that they work for those communities. That may include on-demand bus bookings, the use of small buses to navigate communities, more frequent and good-quality train services. There are plenty of tried-and-tested ideas out there that could help transform rural public transport—those such as the Ring a Link service in rural Ireland, the mobility agency in Italy, and the Bürgerbus in Germany; I'm not sure I've said that properly, and it's not what you think it is.

In order to change the trends we're seeing, local authorities and local travel planning must have the teeth and resources to make public transport reliable and accessible to everyone. As I've said, I've called for free public transport for under-25s, to make sure it is affordable for young people and to encourage further take-up of public transport, and hopefully, set some habits for the long term. I welcome the specific mention that James made of loneliness that is included in the motion. Poor public transport leaves those without a car at a distance from doctors or hospital appointments, work and training, or socialising with friends and family. It has left many, many people of all ages isolated, and particularly for older people, has chipped away at their independence and confidence.

The Campaign for Better Transport shared their reflections with me of a community transport driver who recalled examples of individuals, mostly older people, who hadn't left their homes for weeks or months on end due to a combination of poor weather and poor public transport. Representing the huge rural area of mid and west Wales, as I do now, I also hear similar sad stories, such as those echoed by James Evans. This is a desperate situation for people to be left in and shows how urgent an issue this is. I worry that public transport, and particularly bus policy, isn't being treated with the urgency it needs, and so I hope to see new policy and approaches come forward quickly so that, across all Members of this Senedd, we can work better to support a more effective public transport system. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Can I thank colleagues from across the Chamber, and in particular James Evans for bringing forward this important and timely debate? As other Members have said, public transport is essential to prevent isolation and loneliness, as well as ensuring people are able to access the services that they need, especially health services at this time. Encouraging people to use public transport more often is also an important step we must take to tackle the climate change issue.

Yet, in rural constituencies like Monmouth, too often people still struggle to have access to an adequate public transport system that meets their needs. The latter is a particularly important point. It's not just that there needs to be buses for people to use, but they need to be available at the right times and to stop at the locations that people need to go to. For example, Deputy Llywydd, I recently was contacted by a constituent who relied upon a particular bus service to get to hospital appointments at the Grange hospital. This service has been reduced significantly, and does not go directly to the Grange hospital now, meaning people have to catch a connecting service. This example demonstrates how a lack of joined-up approach to rural bus services affects people's lives dramatically. 

I know there are important issues that impact on services, which other Members have referred to today, such as funding, and I'm pleased that Monmouthshire council has committed to protecting bus routes as much as possible in its 2022-23 budget consultation, despite the continued financial pressures it's facing due to the pandemic. However, there are wider structural and practical issues that need to be looked at closely to ensure that people get the services that they expect. 

As I've said previously, I welcome many of the commitments around rural transport services outlined in the Welsh Government's 'Llwybr Newydd' strategy. It would be useful if the Deputy Minister could outline more about how he envisages the new regional transport plans helping to reduce transport inequalities in rural areas. I do also think that it would be useful to have a specific rural transport strategy to support the rural pathway that forms part of 'Llwybr Newydd'. Furthermore, I think constituents in my constituency are still wondering exactly how they will benefit from the south Wales metro scheme and when they will see improvements in bus services that have been outlined in plans for the metro. 

To finish, Deputy Llywydd, I welcome the opportunity to have spoken in today's debate, and I hope all Members will support this motion. Diolch. 

As a Flintshire county councillor representing a rural ward, I know all too well just how important public transport is for communities like mine. Rural bus routes are rarely money makers, but they are a lifeline for many. Whilst highly populated areas tend to have better bus services because that is where they are most lucrative, it is rural communities that do not have access to amenities locally and need the transport. 

Over recent years, we have seen bus companies across the UK collapse or cut routes that they deem no longer commercially viable. One bus operator in Flintshire made 14 changes to their services in one year, so many that the council struggled to keep bus timetables updated, and residents lost confidence with the service, which is why they need to be more regulated. Another pulled out of a core network route, and demanded a subsidy 10 times what had been paid previously. It ended up being unaffordable and terminated. Being a core route, it impacted greatly on many residents. It was difficult for us to understand why it was not commercially viable, as it was busy, and the fact that no other operator put in a bid for services highlighted that there is a lack of operators to create a market. This would be a good opportunity for local authorities to be able to step in with their own service.

Residents have been rightly upset, angry and frustrated when services were cut. They sent in petitions to the council, demanded we attend community meetings, which were very traumatic, but with limited funds and powers we were limited in where we could help. In one instance, we put together a new timetable around the hours best suited to residents to ensure a full bus, but no operator bid for the service. With no buses available, we hired a taxi minibus and a taxi to ensure the residents would not be isolated. Although welcome, it caused issues for a disabled resident, who needed step-on, step-off access, and sometimes there were not enough seats for everyone. We soon discovered minibuses were an issue. Level access transport is so important for people with prams, walking aids, bikes, shopping trolleys, even just worn-out knees and hips. Eventually, an operator stepped in to run a council procured bus, thanks to a Welsh Government grant, which was most welcome. 

At the consultation events we attended, most of the people were 60 plus. The majority did not use the internet, and wanted a scheduled service, not demand responsive; they didn't like change. They were worried about social isolation, not being able to get to medical appointments or able to go shopping. They wanted reliability and stability, which are really important. Some people were in tears, and it was heartbreaking, saying they will have to move to the town. Providing a bus service helps people stay physically and mentally fit and independent in their own homes longer. It was at this point that I submitted a petition not only to the Minister for economy and transport, but also to the Minister for Health and Social Services. It called for the Welsh Government to regulate commercial bus service operators and give powers and funding to local authorities to run services that best suit the need of local people as they know them best. I was pleased to hear that the Government was looking at this. 

Bus routes should be run for people, not for profit. Commercial routes could be grouped to include an element of social value, with contracts fixed for a time to give stability. That is why I'll be supporting today's amendment, which recognises the harm that privatisation has caused to public transport services in this country. We also need to note that public bus transport is hugely complicated and tied up with school transport, which subsidises the rest of the day. In Flintshire, there are 450 transport contracts, and 350 of those are school contracts that are integrated with public transport to make them viable. Twenty-five per cent of the population in Wales are totally dependent on public transport as the only means of transport. We need a far better system, which connects them and all public transport users to the wider communities, with reliability, stability and integrated ticketing to build confidence. Thank you. 

Good-quality public transport services do have a central role to play in terms of supporting health and well-being, eradicating social isolation and generally building up our communities. But they also have a central role to play in achieving a net-zero 2050. Road transport accounts for 10 per cent of global emissions, and those emissions are rising faster than any other sector. I was actually quite pleased with Alun Davies and his comments today, and wholeheartedly support the initiatives he was talking about in terms of electric buses. 

Now, considerable progress has been made in delivering public transport to rural Aberconwy, thanks to the Fflecsi bus service. I know I've mentioned this before, but it really is a successful model. It's so proven, and I've encouraged the Deputy Minister previously to spread this model across rural Wales, including to the north of Eglwys Fach, so that other isolated communities can benefit from better links to urban hubs. The roll-out would be in line with the mini plan for buses, and in particular the pledge to deliver innovative more flexible bus services, in partnership with local authorities, the commercial and third sectors.

Where there is provision, the Older People's Commissioner for Wales has stated that, due to the availability and reliability of bus services often being scarce, there is now a lack of trust in public transport services. Older people are opting to travel to their health appointments by private vehicles, and this comes at a significant personal expense. And in areas where public transport services are available, a lack of basic facilities such as shelters, seating and timetable information makes travel by our buses an uncomfortable and more difficult experience than it needs to be.

I can vouch for this as I've seen first-hand many residents standing in the rain to catch a bus beside the A470 in Maenan, whilst further to the north in the village of Glan Conwy a bus stop has a digital screen. So, it just shows how there are good models out there but these need to be replicated. I am sure that each Member would be able to provide a list of bus stops with a lack of basic facilities and examples of the contrast between investment in urban and those in our rural areas. 'Llwybr Newydd' has a commitment to invest in bus stations and bus stops, so I would be grateful for some clarity as to how much funding is being invested in improving rural bus stops.

I have spoken previously about the problem we have with the last bus heading from Llandudno to the Conwy valley leaving at 6.40 of an evening, meaning that the two areas are now cut off by public transport for the rest of the night. Having liaised myself with service providers, it has been made clear to me that there is a lack of appetite now by people to work these much-needed late night shifts. So, a clear action plan is needed to support bus companies in recruiting drivers and somehow finding initiatives to encourage staff to work later shifts. This would be in line with the priority in 'Llwybr Newydd' to improve the attractiveness of the industry to more bus drivers.

Finally, in addition to facilitating the movement of locals, public transport has a key role to play in easing the pressure caused to rural areas by the wave of visitors that we thankfully see annually. For example, while Snowdonia is home to over 26,000 people, around 10 million people visit each year. The town of Llandudno, population of around 22,000—that grows to around 60,000 per year. The traffic and parking chaos caused is well documented, but there still remains a lack of common sense by this Welsh Government and Transport for Wales. Despite knowing that these millions make a beeline for our national park annually, you have still not agreed to introduce direct rail services from Holyhead port and Manchester Airport to Blaenau Ffestiniog. That would take the strain, and add to the visitor experience for our visitors. Such actions would enable Snowdonia to have truly international public transport gateways connecting one of the most spectacular areas of rural Wales to the rest of the world.

I do hope that we can start to see some proactive actions taken by the Deputy Minister. So many good ideas have been mentioned here today—

Will the Member conclude now, please?

So, I call on the Deputy Minister now, we've had enough talk, let's please see some actions. Diolch.

I'm very grateful to my good friend from across the Chamber, James Evans, for tabling today's debate, and I genuinely believe bus services are and public transport is part of the wider key pillar of the wider initiative to create the green new deal that we need to see and deliver and act upon here in Wales, and the motion itself is a good motion, but I think anyone with a cursory knowledge of the bus industry would actually recognise that the amendment from my colleague Alun Davies does make the motion so much stronger. And I do find myself, Deputy Presiding Officer, having to vote against a motion I co-tabled and support to actually vote for the amendment, to make the motion stronger and get to the heart of the problem here in Wales. And let's be clear: the amendment is about scrapping the 1985 Transport Act, and it's a piece of deregulation dogma, and it's a piece of deregulation dogma that does belong in the history bin, and it's time we take that action now.

Llywydd, the 1985 Transport Act was the single worst moment for bus services across the United Kingdom, not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom. And it does still regulate our industry in our country here today, and that's what we're setting out to talk about. And if we look at what the Act sets out to achieve, it sets out to achieve making profit the only reason—the only reason—a bus route should exist. And this means that we plan our bus network almost entirely around profitable routes. Members have suggested that councils do and they can subsidise routes, but this does come from dwindling council budgets and after years, and many years, of austerity, which perhaps we won't go into today. You can very much guess what happened there, and I do look back to that 1985 Act and the time then, and the concept of public good was so offensive to that Government, in my eyes, that they passed this law to outlaw such attempts to deliver public good. It was delivered on complicated mechanisms that we still see today.

And I just want to bring up, Deputy Presiding Officer, the Member who tabled the motion rightly mentioned at the start we should seek to answer some of his questions, and I just wanted to go back: I do blame Margaret Thatcher and he will know I blame Margaret Thatcher for a lot of things, which I can't and don't have the time to go into today. But I tell the Member and I tell Members across the Chamber: I stand by my beliefs and so do many of my constituents. But if we look at the results of so many of her dreadful decisions, but certainly this dreadful decision, the nonsense behind it brought fewer services, poorer pay and conditions for our wonderful drivers, and less money to invest in new buses, buses that we've talked about, zero-emission buses, electric buses, that we all want to see in our communities from Blaenau Gwent to Alyn and Deeside.

So, I do urge Members across the Chamber today who have a genuine interest in bus travel to vote for the amendment. Again, I commend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire for tabling this motion today. But we cannot simply tolerate the situation we find ourselves in, so I do commend the motion, but I do call on Members from across political parties to recognise the importance of the motion, recognise the importance of the amended motion and vote for that amended motion when it comes to voting time later today. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'll start by declaring an interest as a Member of Pembrokeshire County Council and I'd like to thank the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire for granting me the opportunity to speak in this afternoon's debate, as I know it will be of great interest to many of my constituents.

Like many growing up in rural Wales, I was dependent on either infrequent and seasonable public transport, lifts from parents or even cycling come rain or shine to try and get to my part-time job when I was still in school. Therefore, it is little surprise that I took my driving test as soon as possible after turning 17 to give me freedom and independence, and I was fortunate to do so. However, for many of my constituents, the local bus service or the even rarer local train service is a lifeline. Whether it is used for their commute to work, visiting friends and family or just heading to do their shopping, public transport can be a major contributor to a person's well-being and standard of living, as the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire rightly highlighted.

One of the first meetings that I had after my election last May was to discuss the challenge facing businesses in the hospitality sector being able to fill employment gaps. A major takeaway from this meeting was that if a worker was working outside of the normal nine-til-six hours in Tenby, yet commuted from Haverfordwest, they were unable to get back home via bus, as the last service left before it got dark. If you consider the number of jobs servicing the night-time economy and hospitality industry in a town such as Tenby, then you will appreciate how much of a challenge this begins to present. 

Some of the bigger employers such as Bluestone near Narberth have taken to hiring their own transport to help staff travel to and from work, but this is obviously not an option for the majority of small businesses. I would be interested in understanding what conversations the Deputy Minister has had with local authorities, such as Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire, to help support the hospitality sector in enabling staff to commute via public transport outside of the more traditional work hours. 

I'd also like to use this opportunity to highlight the train service in south Pembrokeshire. My colleague Natasha Asghar joined me last summer to meet with a group of constituents at Tenby train station. They explained the challenges they faced in travelling up the main line towards east Wales, with concerns raised over the capacity of the trains and the timetabling. The group also highlighted the problems faced in travelling by train between south and mid Pembrokeshire. The simple 20-mile, 30-minute commute by car from Haverfordwest to Tenby on a weekday morning would take two hours and 15 minutes by train, or over an hour and half by bus in the morning. And that is for those who do not require additional journey time to get into Haverfordwest to start with. 

Back in the autumn, plans were announced by the Deputy Minister to improve Wales's public transport infrastructure and connectivity, with news about station improvements at Haverfordwest, Milford Haven and Whitland, as well as a desire to add capacity on the Carmarthen to Milford Haven route. Whilst this is great news for my constituency neighbour Paul Davies, the route between Pembroke Dock and Whitland seems to have been forgotten. My reasoning for focusing on Tenby this afternoon is as its train station is the busiest in Pembrokeshire and is the gateway to one of our crown-jewel seaside resorts. On the same train line is Pembroke Dock, a key location for travellers connecting to and from Ireland, yet these and other smaller stations along the south Pembrokeshire rail route will see no tangible benefits from the extra investment announced by the Deputy Minister.

A Wales-wide interconnected transport system is a vital tool in our fight against climate change, but before encouraging people out of their cars, there must be a public transport network ready and able to deliver for the needs of the people. As I've explained, travelling between north and south Pembrokeshire on public transport is incredibly challenging. It is important to the county's economy that south Pembrokeshire is treated equally to north Pembrokeshire in the development of a west Wales metro. At present, the plans seem to have ignored that Pembrokeshire that exists south of the River Cleddau.

Tomorrow, I host a round-table with local councillors and organisations to take on board their strength of feeling about rail services that are serving their communities. It would be great if, following today's debate, Deputy Minister, I could take back a message from you that the Welsh Government have not forgotten south Pembrokeshire and will provide the support and funding not only to upgrade the facilities, but to also increase the frequency of services using this line. Public transport plays a vital role in connecting our rural communities and reducing our carbon footprint. However, to achieve these goals, the services must be responsive to passengers' needs. Diolch yn fawr.

I don't think the purpose of an individual's Member's debate should always be to demonstrate unanimity amongst backbenchers across the Chamber, because there are always going to be differences between individuals. I make no apologies to James Evans for supporting the amendment from Alun Davies and, indeed, co-signing it, because it demonstrates a fundamental issue.

All of the examples that have been provided—and I'm looking across the screen now and I can see Conservative Members, I can see a Liberal Democrat, Labour Members—are demonstrating market failure, and the market failure is occurring because the market is unregulated. That is the reason for these issues and that is why that amendment gives the motion political backbone. Listening to Carolyn Thomas, I think this is where you could feel the heartfelt prize of someone who has fought these battles to get bus services in their community, as a cabinet member, to get these bus services up and running. You can see and hear the frustration from Carolyn in trying to get this happening, and that's exactly why I'm supporting this amendment. And I'm deeply offended, James Evans—look at me, James Evans, look up at the computer—I'm deeply offended by what you said when you said that deregulation happened 40 years ago, as if that was some distant time in the distant past. Well, actually, I'm 45 this year and I caught those buses, James Evans; I caught those buses that were run by Rhymney Valley district council. And they were reliable, they went to routes that no longer run now, and they were run by a public service. In 1986, after the Act that Jack Sargeant mentioned, Inter Valley Link was created as an arm's-length company—I know because my dad, as a councillor, was a director on the organisation. And on its own, it would have been successful, but the problem was that you had loads of other entrants into the market that came along and ran cheaper services on the same routes. And in 1990, Inter Valley Link went bust. Now, the reason Inter Valley Link went bust was because of the infiltration of the market by companies that were undercutting it. But do you know what happened next? They stopped running those routes. They stopped running those routes, and we saw all those routes collapse. 

Now, through Welsh Government investment and through public sector investment, we have seen some bridging of those gaps in the market. James, do you want to intervene? Do you want to intervene? Yes. Go ahead.

Thank you, Hefin. No offence taken. I'm glad you used to use those buses; I wish more people would use public transport to help us reduce the climate crisis. But one question I would ask you: do you then agree that the Labour Government failed then, between 1997 and 2009, in not re-regulating the bus service, and Gordon Brown and Tony Blair both failed in this sphere?

Yes, absolutely, I agree. And I think I'm more offended by the fact that you're younger than me than anything else. Yes, I do think it was a missed opportunity—absolutely, it was. I think that Government between 1997 and 2007 did some fantastic things, but they also didn't do things they could have done, and I think this is one of the things they could have done and they didn't do and should have been done. But the Deputy Minister there today has the opportunity to do it and I know it is his intention to do it. We need that re-regulation.

So, just coming back to the examples, the bus emergency scheme—and I can see Ken Skates there, who established the bus emergency scheme—that saved the bus industry. That saved the bus industry as it currently exists, following the pandemic. Without BES and without BES 2, you would not have a bus industry to build on right now, and that was because of the actions taken by the Welsh Government. So, we can look at our political predecessors and say, 'They should have done this' but that doesn't stop us doing things today and being bold.

So, when you look at the routes that happen—. I'm fed up of negotiating, of begging private sector providers, like Carolyn Thomas said, to provide routes that are non-profitable. I'm fed up of it; I'm constantly doing it. We're looking towards private providers to provide a route to the Royal Gwent from Pontypridd through Nelson and Islwyn and Cwmbran. We are looking to do that. We can do it; we can work hard to achieve it. But what we really need is a publicly provided service to fill in those gaps for us, and I think the re-regulation of bus services would allow that and that is what that Bill needs to do.

So, I say to James Evans, you can't help being younger than me, but you can make up for it by supporting our amendment. And I'd also like to say to Mabon ap Gwynfor, who is the only other non-Conservative, I think, whose signed the amendment—I think he's closing the debate today—[Interruption.] Yes, Rhys, but you supported the amendment. I'd ask Mabon: come and support that amendment too. We object to the motion only in order to vote for that amendment. That's really important, that we get that amendment through, because I think it will make a significant difference. So, we look forward to support across the Chamber. 

Before I call the Deputy Minister, could I remind everyone that, as well as examples from Conservative and Labour Members and Liberal Democrats, there are Plaid Cymru Members also in this debate and I can see them on the screen, to be fair to all?

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Thank you very much to the Members who've spoken and for bringing this debate. Again, I think we've shown in this Chamber cross-party concern and support for the plight of public transport and a will to improve it. I think that that is a precious thing that we should nurture. No doubt, we will disagree on some of the details and much of the debate has been spent on diagnosing who is to blame for past failures. But I think what we can all agree on is that it is through collective action that we can make things better, and I can assure Members that this Government is determined to do that.

Jane Dodds did say that she was worried that bus policy is not being treated with the urgency it needs, and I can assure her that is not the case. We will be bringing forward a bus White Paper, 'Bus Cymru', in the coming months, and we're taking a bit of time to do it, because we are working genuinely collaboratively with local authorities and with operators to design something that is going to work.

James Evans, in his exchanges with Hefin David, and in his original contribution, posed the question: why didn't the Labour Government of the late 1990s rip up the fragmented system? I think what they did was a genuine attempt to use a partnership approach with operators to develop a different way of doing it. But I think we can say that partnership approach hasn't worked. We can see now in Manchester, four years on from bringing in a partnership franchise system, they're still not able to get it off the ground.

So, I think it's entirely right for us to say that different approaches have been tried to achieve a shared objective, and we are learning all the time about what works and what doesn't work. And, obviously, there is an interest as well in the privatised commercial sector in scuppering some of these plans—let's be clear about that. Legal actions are often brought by private operators against attempts to do this. There's often lobbying and various schemes are concocted to suggest that franchising properly isn't needed as partnerships can work, and I don't think that is the approach we should be following. That's what we're doing in this Government that is different from what's come before: looking at a continental model of a supervisory board rather than a local partnership board, an all-Wales approach, with TfW at its centre, but genuinely working through the different parts of local government, the county council level, the corporate joint committee level, the Welsh Government and TfW, to try between us to come up with a system that's going to work, that will allow franchising on a whole-area basis. Because the current privatised system really is the root of the problem, and that's where I agree with the amendment. Obviously, Government Ministers traditionally, in these debates, abstain on the motions, because they are backbench motions, and we'll continue that tradition today. But we certainly support the spirit of what's being argued this afternoon, and we need to move to a more planned and coherent basis.

Now, as Carolyn Thomas said in her very powerful contribution, I thought, rural bus services are rarely money makers, she said, but they are a lifeline. And that is absolutely right. And she quoted an example of an operator pulling out of a route and then demanding a subsidy 10 times greater than had previously been the case, and that just goes to show how the system is gamed by commercial operators, and that's what happens in a market, isn't it? And that's not to criticise the individual operators; that is what the market is set up to do. But, as Hefin David said in his well-made contribution, there is clear market failure, because the market is not serving the public interest. So, what we often see is operators competing for a small number of lucrative routes and then not running socially necessary routes.

Now, there was a time when there was sufficient public funding to be able to offer subsidies for these socially necessary routes, but, after 10 years of austerity, that discretionary funding simply isn't there. And often, I think—. We've seen Bridgend County Borough Council, where now commercial services only run; there is no funding available for subsidising routes, and that's been reflected in the nature of the bus network now that remains in that area. We don't want to see that. We want to see, as we can see in many functioning public transport systems across our near neighbours, a regular, reliable bus service. I note what Sam Kurtz said about the example of a part-time worker trying to get back from a late shift from Tenby where the system currently isn't good enough. We need it to be reliable, we need it to be regular, and we need it to be affordable. And do you know what? It's absolutely doable. Where there's a will, there's a way. This isn't too complicated to do; it's just we haven't been willing to spend the money necessary, or put the right regulatory structure in place in order for it to happen, and that's what we want to do. And this is where, I think, the particular focus of rural areas comes in, because much of what we've described applies to all parts of Wales.

In rural areas, there's an extra set of challenges. Now, you can have a perfectly functioning public transport system in rural areas. If you look at rural Germany or rural Switzerland, which are just as sparsely, if not more sparsely, populated as parts of rural Wales, they have villages there, small villages, with a regular hourly service, because that's what they've prioritised to do, and that's what they've done in their franchised systems, where they use profit-making services in towns to cross-subsidise loss-making services in rural areas, recognising there's a social need here.

The case, I think, for a proper bus system is as much about social justice as it is about tackling climate change. And I feel passionately about that, as, indeed, do Members right across the divide. So, let's work together to come up with something that's going to stand the test of time. So, we'll be bringing forward a White Paper, and, as I say, we are genuinely consulting with local authorities at the moment, and, when that is introduced to the Senedd, let's work together on a cross-party basis to see if we can strengthen it and make sure it is fit for purpose. And I will certainly promise to be in listening mode to work with you to see if it can be made even stronger. So, I can assure Members that we are taking it seriously, we are treating it urgently, but we want to get it right.

Now, Natasha Asghar made the argument that there's not enough funding for buses, and it's certainly true that even though we put in a significant amount of money—. In the last 15 months, we've prioritised more than £108 million to support the bus industry through COVID. As Hefin and Jack Sargeant rightly pointed out, were it not for that funding, the bus industry would have gone to the wall. That's on top of the £90 million we already spend annually in bus services provision, but that isn't enough to have the sort of bus service we want to see and that is seen on the continent. That is one of the reasons why we brought in the road review. And I realise not all Members have supported that, but the reason for doing that is we want to free up funding to put investment, to prioritise investment, in public transport. And, as I say gently, if I might, to Members across the Chamber, it is no good supporting high-level commitments to climate change if you're not prepared to follow through the necessary actions to make those commitments a reality. Shifting money away from road building towards better public transport is an absolute must if all the sentiments we've heard in this debate today are going to be translated into a properly functioning bus system. So, I hope Members will reflect on that.

Natasha Asghar said it's been seven months since the road review and we can't sit around. Well, she may be sitting around, Dirprwy Lywydd, but I'm certainly not and the board of the roads review panel certainly are not, because they are meeting regularly and they're taking the task intensely. They're about to publish an interim report and a full report by the summer, so they are working at pace.

Peter Fox made the point about a joined-up approach to bus services, and I was pleased to meet with Councillor Richard John, the leader of Monmouthshire, on Monday to talk about the particular plight of Monmouthshire, which is not well served by public transport—his successor—to understand the concerns that they have. And I do think—. I agree with his challenge that regional transport plans through the corporate joint committees have got a vital role to play in making the franchising system work.

I do believe, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've come to the end of my time, but I just want to repeat my thanks to all Members for agreeing on what the problem is. Now I think the challenge for us all is to come together to figure out the solution. Diolch.

I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone who has taken part in this debate this afternoon, and thank you to the Deputy Minister for his response. Thanks in particular to James Evans, the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, for putting forward the motion in such a cross-party manner.

It's a very important debate, because not only does it introduce a simple solution of how to connect people between point A and point B, but it does so much more than that. Providing effective and smooth-running public transport in rural areas also helps us to get to grips with some of the other fundamental problems facing us with regard to economic growth, providing employment, physical and mental health, and education and so much more.

We heard many presentations by a number of people. I won't be able to go through every contribution, of course, but James opened the debate by talking about his conversations with that body that represents women here in Wales, the WI, and how members of the WI are dependent on public transport, very often, and specifically the way that they have looked at loneliness and isolation in our communities amongst older people, and how a lack of public transport is impacting that cohort.

Jane Dodds spoke about her proposal that was discussed previously and the fact that we need free public transport on buses for those under 25 years of age, and she put forward alternative solutions to this problem. Carolyn spoke very powerfully about her personal experiences on the cabinet in Flintshire. She spoke about how bus companies now only look to make a profit, but we need more in terms of services, and that the demand for bus services to connect communities and ensure that people have access to services is more important than profit—people over profit, that's what she said.

We heard very powerful contributions from Jack Sargeant and Hefin David talking about the deregulation that took place during Margaret Thatcher's time in office, and how that was damaging. I, certainly, therefore, will be supporting the amendment.

Sam Kurtz spoke about the fact that public transport is vital for people in rural areas in order to access employment, and he spoke about his personal experience. And then, thank you to the Deputy Minister for his response. He talked about the roads review, of course. I, too, in the context of Llanbedr, am very aware of that, and I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome the Deputy Minister to come to Llanbedr with me so that we can try to find an alternative solution to the problem in that place.

But, that aside, if we are serious about getting to grips with the climate change crisis and ensure that Wales plays its part, then we have to decrease our over-reliance on private transport, as a number of people have mentioned today. As things stand, there's no choice for people in rural areas but to use their cars.

Between 2010 and 2018, public expenditure on buses declined by £10 million. According to figures from the Campaign for Better Transport, there was a decline of almost 70 per cent in public funding given to buses over this period across Wales, with Monmouthshire seeing a decline of over 65 per cent of cuts, Flintshire seeing a decline of 51 per cent, and, indeed, in some counties and rural areas, we saw a cut of 100 per cent in public subsidy, for example in Wrexham and Neath Port Talbot. This, therefore, isn't sustainable, and it's the poorest and most vulnerable in our society who are suffering the most. One of the best services is to be had in London, of course, where, as we know, deregulation didn't take place under Thatcher, and that case has been made.

Over the past summer in Dwyfor Meirionnydd, we saw hospitality businesses having to close during the tourism season. Why? Well, when our office spoke to them, they told us that people couldn't get to their workplaces. There were restaurants that were unable to open because people lived far away and they didn't have transport. I spoke to the job centre in Porthmadog and they said that the major challenge for their clients in looking for work was the ability to reach those workplaces and the lack of public services to enable them to do so.

I've spoken several times about the excellent work that the Gisda charity does. A consultation was undertaken with young people looking at mental health, and the young people of Gwynedd said that the major challenge in terms of their mental health is the lack of access to the services that they need because they're so far removed from them and they can't get transport to them.

The case has been made clear and a number of people have given a number of solutions today. I would ask the Deputy Minister, as he prepares the White Paper—and fair play to the Deputy Minister for talking about rural areas—to consider Peter Fox's proposal that specific consideration be given to developing a rural strategy in that White Paper. So, thank you very much to James Evans for bringing forward this debate this afternoon and to everyone for their contribution. I'm very grateful for that. I will be supporting the amendment, and I would encourage everyone else to support the amendment, and, therefore, the motion. I look forward to the vote. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see that there is objection, therefore I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.