Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:58 pm on 1 February 2022.
Thank you for the series of comments and questions and, again, for your good wishes for a recovery, I hope within the new isolation period. Look, on your points around the JMC and how inter-governmental relations are supposed to work, I think this shows the difference that the leadership at the UK level makes. I certainly had more than my fair share of disagreements with the Government led by Theresa May when she was Prime Minister, but I do think that there was greater attention paid to what was agreed and being agreed through that inter-governmental process, through JMCs, and in fact, of course, JMCs just ceased to meet. The challenge now is that our new inter-governmental machinery actually works and is real and we don't see Welsh interests—not only Welsh interests, but from the other devolved Governments—simply ignored or overlaid by an over-mighty UK Government that is not interested in making the partnership arrangements we should have in place work. I think, whilst you and I have different perspectives on the union, I want to see the union work, and that must mean there has to be proper respect from a UK Government for the agreements we have in place on exactly how that is supposed to happen.
When it comes to the UK and EU partnership council, as I said in answer to Paul Davies, Lord Frost departed with work incomplete in a range of the areas that he had been running for the UK Government. I've made it clear that Ministers cannot be observers in the partnership council; we must be participants, or Ministers will not attend. It is a poor use of my time or any other Minister's time to simply sit mute on the sidelines whilst the talking is only done by one UK Government Minister on behalf of all four nations, including those areas where there is a plain and obvious devolved interest. And this does doesn't have to be an area where there is antagonism or disagreement between the four UK Governments. Members will be aware I've regularly referred to previous occasions where Ministers from different parts of the UK in our previous engagements with the Council of Ministers within Europe agreed common positions and devolved Ministers would lead on some of those items. That is a valuable exercise of ministerial time. It should promote greater working to make sure that we do maximise our shared interests across the UK, and anybody who wants a fuller explanation of this only needs to spend a few hours of time with Alun Davies to get a fuller rundown of how that has worked successfully in times past. So, there is already a model that has been proven to work but does not get into an area where the UK Government feels that its position is being usurped, but more broadly, actually, builds upon that as well. And that is the way in which we approach our broader relationships as well.
So, on your final points about maintaining contact with the UK Government on our relationships and contact with Europe, we do that as a matter of course. We don't set out to do this in a way that is deliberately antagonistic or deliberately cuts across UK Government interests. We do so in a way where there is genuine sharing of information to ensure that we are doing what we say everyone else should do, and being genuinely interested in how we promote the interests of Wales, and to do so in a way that should add strength to where the UK is rather than to undermine it. So, I'm very confident that we can carry on doing that, where Derek Vaughan works to priorities set by the Welsh Government on behalf of the people of Wales, and does so in a way that I think is a model for what should happen in the future both within the UK and externally.