Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands. 

Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. Minister, how would you define the word 'reform'?

Reform would be to make change, and, in the Welsh Government's context, obviously we don't want to make changes for the sake of changes, and we wouldn't want to make reforms that were regressive. So, within the context of council tax, for example, reform would be to create a more progressive system.  

Lovely, and thank you, Minister—you have well guessed my series of questions in terms of council tax reform; I'd hoped that was fairly obvious. As I'm sure all Members across the Chamber regularly do, I do take great interest in the co-operation agreement document that you are signed up to with Plaid Cymru, and in there, as you noted, when it comes to council tax reform, you have an ambition to reform one of the most regressive forms of taxation that disproportionately impacts poorer areas of Wales, and are looking to make it fairer. So, Minister, as you described this as one of the most regressive forms of taxation, how far will you go to reform it?

Well, I made a statement on 7 December, providing our early thoughts in response to the work that we commissioned over the period of the last Senedd, which was published in our summary of findings. That pulled together various potential models for the future, as investigated by Bangor University, Cardiff University, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others who have been doing work for us. So, our next steps, as set out in that statement, would be to look to a number of streams of work. One would be to ask the Valuation Office Agency to update the valuations here in Wales. That hasn't happened for some time; actually, it's existed in its current form—the council tax system has existed in its current form—since 1993, so we've got a lot of catching up to do in terms of recognising the value of properties. And that's a good start. That will help us then consider future options—for example, changing the number of bands, adding bands at the top and bottom of the system to try and make the system fairer. And, also, it will be the intention to review the council tax reduction scheme. So, at the moment, we're able to support over 200,000 families, households, across Wales in respect of council tax bills. So, we'll be reviewing that to make sure that the new system is coherent with whatever comes next after the valuation. Also, we'll be reviewing the discounts, disregards, exemptions and premiums to ensure that they're also relevant to today's policy ambitions. 

Thank you, Minister. I suppose the risk that I'm pointing toward is that we talk about reform, and talk, to my mind, to a more wholesale change, and some of the things you mentioned there perhaps aren't reform but are merely tweaks or tinkering around the edges. And simply a revaluation, with a couple of extra bands added, potentially, to council tax, isn't real reform. And, of course, it's important to note that the last time the Welsh Government undertook a revaluation in Wales, one in three households saw a hike in the council tax that they were paying. And I suppose it's also a risk that, without a real desire to see reform, we could be talking about this again in another five, 10 years' time, talking about the regressive nature of council tax but no real change being made to it, just merely tweaks here and there. So, Minister, are you able to assure us today that you have a real appetite to see changes in this area and to see true reform, rather than just tweaking things around the edges?

So, there were a few things in that question. I don't think a revaluation is tweaking around the edges. You described that, even in the last revaluation, a third of properties saw an increase in their bills. That's pretty dramatic, and there would probably be a corresponding number who saw a decrease in their bills, and some then who saw the system stay the same for them. So, there'll be lots of questions for us to consider even in that context. What kind of transitional support, if any, do we put in for those households? What is the impact on councils themselves in terms of being able to raise revenue? Will we need to put transitional things in place for them? So, that's another big question. But, overall, all of this doesn't close the door on more fundamental reform in future. So, even a revaluation, the new bands and so on, will take almost the entirety of this Senedd term. That's partly because of the rules that sit behind the VOA, when changes can be made, and when they can be implemented and so on. So, this is a long-term piece of work, but it doesn't shut the door on more fundamental reform in the future, such as a land value tax. We will go on continuing to explore something like that. We could have rolling revaluations. When we think about the data that the Welsh Revenue Authority is constantly getting in terms of house prices, we could have rolling revaluations, which might make things fairer and more up to date in future. So, alongside the revaluation, we are considering additional kinds of reforms for the future. I think that this should be a collaborative piece of work, and I'd be more than happy to have discussions with colleagues across the Senedd in terms of hearing ideas for making council tax fairer. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, the blatant denial of funding to Wales by the Westminster Government has probably gone to another level, hasn't it, this week. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised, because we already know that the UK Government is denying Wales our £5 billion share of HS2 funding—money, by the way, that they've given to Scotland and they've given to Northern Ireland. Westminster is also denying us the ability to utilise our natural resources to create revenue through the devolution of the Crown Estate, something, again, that they've given to another part of the United Kingdom. But we learnt, of course, this week that despite an explicit promise by the Prime Minister that Wales wouldn't be a penny worse off from leaving the EU, Westminster is pocketing £1 billion-worth of money that should be coming to Wales. So, do you agree with me, Minister, that the more the Westminster Government breaks its promises, the more it breaks up the United Kingdom? 

Yes, I do. I agree fully with that. I think that every time the UK Government makes a promise to Wales and to the people of Wales that it doesn't keep, it does risk the break-up of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom has to be a group of nations where we have mutual respect, and where we treat each other with equality, and we don't have that at the moment. That's not to say that the UK Government can't today make changes in that respect and change its approach to the United Kingdom. I really don't think that down the end of the M4 the UK Government really hears the mood music in Wales and hears how angry and fed up people are in Wales with the UK Government. But, of course, there'll be opportunities for them to hear that loud and clear in the months ahead. 

And, of course, not only are they denying us the funding that's rightfully ours, but they're also denying us the fiscal levers that would really help make a difference to people's lives here in Wales, from intentionally restricting what fiscal powers we have to denying us powers over other key levers like corporation tax, value added tax and air passenger duty. As you said earlier in a previous answer, we just don't have the fiscal firepower. Again, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, because it's no secret that this Tory Westminster Government is intent not only on undermining devolution, but on actually undoing devolution, and taking back powers to Westminster. So, do you share my concerns that the Westminster Government's intention to review the Wales Act 2014 is an ominous sign that the Tories are coming after devolution, and that it isn't just our money that they'll take off us, but our powers as well?  

There's so much to respond to there. I completely share your concerns about the lack of flexibilities that the Welsh Government has. I know that this has been something that has actually received agreement across the Senedd in the past, in terms of the need for the Welsh Government to have greater flexibility at year end to have a full financial year to spend money that is often presented to us very late on in the financial year. Our ability to borrow more in the aggregate and more on an annual basis would be useful in terms of managing our funding as well. So, there's a whole range of flexibilities that we want to see there. There's a whole range of tax powers that we would want to see come to Wales—you mentioned air passenger duty. The huge trouble that we're having even really getting proper conversation now with the UK Government in respect of the vacant land tax is another example of where things just aren't satisfactory at the moment. And so the recent announcements in terms of the UK Government's approach to the Welsh Government and Welsh powers are of concern, and obviously we will want to be engaging with this fully. Again, this is an area where those of us who share views will want to work collaboratively.