Item 6 is the next item, the debate on the petition to save Cowbridge intermediate school for girls from demolition. I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.

Motion NDM7924 Jack Sargeant

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the petition P-05-949 'Save Cowbridge Old Girls’ School from Demolition', which received 5,522 signatures.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you very much for the opportunity to put forward this debate.

This petition was submitted in March 2020 by Sara Pedersen, having collected 2,080 signatures online and 3,442 signatures on paper, and I'm sure that budding mathematicians across the Chamber have already calculated the total of 5,522 signatures. Llywydd, the text of the petition says:

'We call on the National Assembly for Wales to urge the Welsh Government to protect the former Intermediate School for Girls’ in Cowbridge, Vale of Glamorgan. This was the first intermediate school to be built specifically for the education of girls in Wales (and England) and is the subject of a planning application for demolition. Failure to protect it will lead to the loss of a nationally important historic asset.'

As Members will be aware, the Petitions Committee doesn't get involved in planning issues, but the issue of whether the building should have been listed by Cadw and the petitioner's call for an independent review of that decision was one we could act on. During the fifth Senedd, the previous Senedd's Petitions Committee, under the sterling leadership of my predecessor Chair, Janet Finch-Saunders, agreed to request a debate, but, as the Senedd business was restricted due to the pandemic, it was not possible to hold said debate.

Supporters of the petition argue that the school, designed by architect Robert Williams, is, and I quote,

'a prominent and attractive testimony to a pivotal moment in Welsh history and the equal opportunities afforded to underprivileged girls of the time'.

Llywydd, the committee has written to successive culture Ministers, who have defended Cadw's decision and their process. Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas in 2020 wrote, and, again, I quote:

'My officials have very carefully considered all of the arguments put forward for listing the building but I am afraid that it does not meet the criteria to be listed at the national level.'

Following further requests by the campaigners for a review of the original decision by Cadw, the Minister, and, again, I quote,

'obtained independent advice from Richard Hayman, a building historian and archaeologist with particular expertise in historic buildings in Wales'.

The Minister went on to support that decision not to list the building. In this Senedd, the new committee wrote to the current Minister, Dawn Bowden, who will be responding to today's debate, to see whether she would change anything as Minister. Dawn Bowden, the Minister for culture, replied and said

'there has been no new information presented that would reverse the decision not to list the building.'

I know Members from right across the Chamber who are more familiar with the particular building in question today, and the area in question, and they will want to talk more about its architectural and historical values, and, again, the claims made for its significance beyond the local area. But, Llywydd, if I may, I want to come to a wider point in my contribution today: there must be more we can do in this Senedd to support communities to preserve buildings they value. Cowbridge school isn't an isolated case. As a committee, we've recently seen campaigners in the north petitioning to preserve Coleg Harlech—P-05-1130, 'The Welsh Government should re-purchase and refurbish Coleg Harlech'—another educational building seeking new purpose. I know that the clerking team of the Petitions Committee regularly reject other petitions where local people are seeking to challenge planning decisions that will result in the demolition of local buildings and the memories and the meanings that they represent. I look around the Chamber and at those online and I'm sure each of us in our own constituencies and regions have a building in own constituency or region that clearly fits this pattern, a building that doesn't make enough money or a building that has become too costly to maintain, but nonetheless holds that cherished place at the heart of our towns and villages and in the hearts of the people who live there.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

We also know, from the work the Petitions Committee has done on the petition P-05-1112, 'Help Welsh Communities Buy Community Assets: Implement Part 5 Chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011', that the Welsh Government is working with other partners to find ways of making it viable for communities to take over community buildings and facilities. Now, I recognise that that won't be a solution for the Cowbridge school campaigners, but I do hope, in the long term, this might create another route for communities to preserve and sustain the landmark buildings they so much value.

Acting Llywydd in the Chair now, I do look forward to hearing Members' contributions from across the Chamber, and, of course, I look forward to the Minister's response regarding preserving buildings of significance in communities right across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

I am speaking today in support of saving Cowbridge old girls' school from demolition, and to speak on behalf of everyone who wants to see this building brought back to life. The issue is a complex one in that the school building is subject to an owner who wants to sell it and release its value, likely meaning its demolition, a local community that wants to keep it, and Cadw, who refuse to give it any protected status. 

As we have heard, the school was the first purpose-built secondary school for girls' education in England and Wales, and, as such, I believe it has significant historic relevance. It is also valued by the local community as a heritage building, with highly regarded architecture and local significance. And in this regard, I can clearly see why this petition's prompted such a large local response. The building is also home to the first ever laboratory facility in the UK for the teaching of practical science skills to girls. In my mind, this makes saving this building even more important, because it reflects a turning point in our country in recognising the equality, value and potential of women in science—principles that are now recognised internationally on 11 February. Sadly, the issue is complicated by the fact that Cadw refuse to give listed status, mainly because the original building has been altered, in their minds, extensively, and because several other better examples of secondary schools built in this period have already been listed. For all concerned, there needs to be a resolution, otherwise the building will fall into further disrepair, more funds will be used in maintaining the property and the building could possibly become structurally unsound, meaning that its current potential to be repurposed and brought back to life will be lost.

We hear in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 the Welsh Government's desire for more cohesive communities and for them to have a greater say in what affects them. I believe here we have an example of how the system is letting this community down. If this Government wants greater community cohesion, it needs to encourage communities to have a greater say over the buildings and spaces they see as part of their community, and support them when they speak up to save their local heritage.

There were over 5,500 signatures on the petition, which embodies the strength of local feeling over this building. The Minister has an opportunity to act decisively here and call in the application for a review, and, frankly, if they choose not to act to save this building, it shows more than anything the contempt that they have for the community in trying to stand up and save something that is clearly important to them.

In my mind, the cause of this current situation falls squarely on the shoulders of Cadw. Cadw's lack of concern for the conservation of this building because it fails to tick enough boxes for them could ultimately see this former school destroyed and lost for future generations. Cadw should be more sympathetic to giving protected status to buildings that have local significance, and not just national significance, because it is distressing for communities to have architecture, buildings they value, buildings that they have grown up with and buildings that reflect their local history destroyed simply because it's the most profitable thing to do. Demolition of the Cowbridge old girls' school would, in my mind, be an outright failure of this nation to protect significant local heritage and, with this in mind, I hope Members today will join me in supporting this petition. Thank you.

I rise to speak in this debate not because I have a particular interest in the important building in Cowbridge that has been referred to, but because I wanted to make some more general points about the significant impact that not listing important buildings of local and national heritage is having in other parts of the country. 

In my own constituency, there's a very prominent art deco property on the seafront in Rhos-on-Sea, which, unfortunately, is likely to be demolished because of a similar exchange of correspondence with Cadw and, indeed, the Minister. I know there's some sympathy from the Minister and others in this Chamber for trying to overhaul the system to make sure that we can afford properties like 57 Marine Drive in Rhos-on-Sea with the proper protection that they deserve. And it's not only that property that prompts me to speak today either. I also am involved—and I will declare an interest—with a charity, a small charity, called the Evan Roberts Institute. We acquired—. And I'm a trustee of the institute; I just want to put that on the record for interest purposes. We acquired a chapel in Loughor in south Wales called Pisgah. Now, Pisgah has absolutely no architectural merit whatsoever, but it is extremely important to the people of Wales because of its history and because of its association with the revivalist Evan Roberts. And if it hadn't been for the fact that we were able to acquire the building, that building would have been demolished and a bungalow would be sitting in its place right now.

And I do fear, I am afraid to say, that there is a problem with Cadw in terms of the way it lists our buildings. It doesn't always look at the historical importance; it rather looks at the design of the building, whether there are any unique features and the architecture rather than the history and the things that are associated with it. And I think it's a tragedy, because we're going to lose more and more of these important parts of what Wales has emerged from, if you like, what makes the modern Wales we love, in the future. [Interruption.] Yes, I'll happily take an intervention.

As an intervention there, on the point you make, Darren Millar, Samuel Kurtz and I met with the Baptist Union of Wales last week, and the issues that chapels are having with Cadw, of being unable to renovate the buildings at all and then the chapel closes and everything goes and the building is demolished. It's not fit for purpose at the moment.

It isn't fit for purpose, and I know that the Minister will probably refer to the fact that local listing can take place via local authorities, but many local authorities simply don't have the time, energy or capacity, unfortunately, to develop their local lists. So, I think what we could really do with is to have Cadw introduce another category of listing, perhaps a grade III-type list, which affords these buildings that little bit of extra protection that they deserve. And both of these particular properties that I've referred to in this debate, both of them are actually listed on the Coflein website, which, of course, is the online database of the national monuments records for Wales. If they're important enough to be on that list, then surely they ought to be afforded some protection. So, I would be grateful, Minister, if you, in your contribution to this debate, could give serious consideration to perhaps introducing that grade III listing, which does take place in Scotland, but doesn't here in Wales, and I think it would give us the protection that we need.

I'm very pleased to follow my colleague Darren Millar, and I largely agree with everything he says on this occasion, as indeed with Joel James, because I think this is a really important issue and it's excellent that this petition has enabled us to discuss it.

I agree that there are some really complicated issues here, but, as with Darren Millar and the chapel in Loughor, I've got a particular pub in my constituency, the Roath Park Hotel, which is the last Victorian pub in City Road—the last of eight. Unfortunately, the planning system isn't sufficiently in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to enable local authorities to refuse permission to demolish in order to create a hideous modern building in its place. It has happened so often around Cardiff that we have lost the vernacular of our historic architecture, and modern buildings, unfortunately, in general, are not nearly as elegant or well built.

That doesn't mean to say that we are philistines—that we don't want change—but I just think this building in particular is so important because it's only one of five left of 95 examples of a girls' school that was purpose built for this reason. I've been trying to find out a bit more about Robert Williams, the architect who built it. Because I learnt from the petition that the buildings he went on to build in London and in Egypt have been preserved and yet, here in Wales, we are considering demolishing this fine example of his work. Given that he was a pioneer of building conservation and of social housing, and was setting up the Welsh school of architecture, and the need to use the Welsh language in building the architects of the future, this is a really rich history that we are in danger of losing. The well-being of future generations Act simply doesn't capture the importance of all of these relevant facts, because we're in danger of simply having a system that's based on the cost of everything and the value of nothing. And so, I just think that we really have to change things.

The planning decisions, for example, don't have to pay any regard to the carbon emissions involved in demolishing this perfectly usable building that could easily be converted into some extremely fine and much-needed social housing, because, after all, this is a building that had accommodation involved from day one for girls who couldn't travel that far to Cowbridge on a daily basis. So, I think there are huge reasons why we need to revisit this as a matter of urgency, because carbon emissions are a very significant issue in line with the well-being of future generations Act, but it also touches on the cultural importance of this building, of the language of involvement of Robert Williams in promoting the Welsh language in architecture. And I just think that the system is absolutely not right, not fit for purpose at the moment, otherwise we're going to have more disasters like this.

I find myself agreeing also, like Jenny Rathbone, with the Conservatives in this debate. I know, a historical moment: the first time I've said those words. [Laughter.] But I think this shows that we can be united when things matter, and too much of our heritage has disappeared.

Beautiful buildings across Wales have been left to rot until, inevitably, local planning authorities are told by developers that they cannot be saved. And Jenny Rathbone's point is extremely important in terms of the carbon emissions as well. We should be re-imagining these beautiful and historic buildings to give them a new lease of life. I am fed up of seeing, also, important buildings being listed, but not then being saved and protected, and left to rot. This is not acceptable.

Whenever I travel into Cowbridge, I am always struck by the beauty of the buildings in question, which are reminiscent of Coed-y-Lan school near my home in Pontypridd, which has also been left to dilapidate. It's a very sad situation, and especially when you think about the history of this specific building. I won't repeat those statistics, but I agree with you, Joel: in terms of the role with women in science, this is a building that is of significance. And, clearly, I am not alone in my appreciation of the building and its historic significance. In fact, on the website set up by the campaign group, there is a list of 20 prominent historic buildings specialists, historians and architects, all of whom support listing the building and sensitively converting it. These include Dr Eurwyn Wiliam, former National Museum Wales historic building expert, former council member of the Historic Buildings Council for Wales and former chairman of the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, and who has often advised Cadw on such matters. Yet, it seems that their views and those of local residents have been disregarded, leading to Cadw refusing to list the building.

I understand all too well the need for affordable social housing in Cowbridge—a point made by the one letter I have received that supports the demolition of the building. But, as illustrated in the tens of letters I’ve received in support of saving the building, it isn’t an either/or, and there is a way where we can achieve the best of both worlds: saving the building and converting and repurposing it. Save Britain’s Heritage, working with the architect Philip Tilbury, has produced an alternative scheme, showing ample space to create 23 apartments within the school, as well as 12 new apartments and two new houses on the adjacent land. I urge the Deputy Minister to ask her officials to look further into this matter, as well as the alternative plans put forward.

Historic Scotland and Historic England both have procedures established when there are such disputes, which allow for an independent external peer review in such circumstances—something that I believe is merited in this case. This is an opportunity to reimagine a historic building to meet local need. I very much support the petition and thank all constituents that have contacted me on this matter.

I now call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, Dawn Bowden.

Thank you. Can I first of all thank all those Members who have spoken in this debate this afternoon, and for highlighting the strength of feeling towards this former school? And I do understand the strength of feeling that has been expressed, and I've had a similar issue myself, in my own constituency, with the Hoover building, which is hugely important to Merthyr Tydfil for all the reasons that anybody who knows about the history of Merthyr Tydfil will understand. But that's never been listed for all the reasons that I'll come on to now.

So, I do fully acknowledge the historical interest of the school, and I agree it will be a huge shame to see it demolished. However, to be listed by the Welsh Government, a building must demonstrate architectural and historic qualities of national significance. So, it has to meet both those criteria, as set out in that national listing criteria. This building has effectively been assessed against the listing criteria three times: first, as part of the national community listing resurvey of Cowbridge in 1999, then by Cadw historic buildings specialists in response to a request in 2018, and again by an independent expert in 2020. The later assessments included the careful scrutiny of all the evidence provided by the campaigners. The conclusion was that, unfortunately, the criteria are not met in this instance. The assessment—[Interruption].

I wonder if I could challenge you, Minister, to say that this is missing the point. Because it does not meet the criteria for sustainability, which is reduce, re-use, recycle. So, the Cadw framework needs to change, or the planning system needs to change, to capture that.

Okay. If I carry on, I may cover some of those points.

But the conclusion was that, unfortunately, the criteria are not met in this instance. The assessment—contrary, Darren, to the point that you raised—did recognise the historical importance of the introduction of intermediate schools for girls, but architecturally, this building has undergone extensive change, both historically and in more recent times. The better preserved a building is architecturally, the better it is able to illustrate its history and to contribute to our national story. This building no longer survives as built, its form has been compromised by large-scale alterations in 1909 and more recently, as recently as a few years ago, with the insertion of UPVC windows.

Now, while I note the call for a new category of listing, I don't share the view that reducing the threshold for listing to capture buildings such as Cowbridge school is appropriate. This would undermine the integrity of those buildings that have already been identified as being of national importance. There are already 30,000 listed buildings in Wales, more than any other UK nation in proportion to the size of its population.

I'm very grateful to you for taking the intervention. Doesn't the fact that many of these buildings are being listed on Coflein, the national database of historic monuments, tell us that there is a special place for these buildings in our nation and there does deserve to be a level of protection for them that makes us think twice, three times, four times before we decide to demolish them? That is why attaching another grade—. We've got grade I listed, which are the absolute belters, if you like, the ones that we really do have to do everything to protect and never let go to rack and ruin; grade II, a slightly different standard, but things in place to protect them. Grade III could be a different level of protection. Do you accept that that is something you could look at?

I think we need to—. Again, you need to listen to the rest of what I'm going to say, because I am dealing with how I feel that buildings like this do need to be dealt with.

I do recognise that what I've said so far is not the answer that the campaigners want to hear, and I know that they have requested a peer review by heritage organisations in England and Scotland, but further review is inappropriate as a legally binding decision has now been taken. In law, the building has been rejected for listing, and the proper mechanism for reviewing that decision was through the courts on application for judicial review. So, unless there is new evidence, there is no basis on which to change this decision.

The primary objective of the campaign, of course, is to see this building retained and reused, which is the point that Jenny Rathbone was making, and while the building does not meet the criteria for national listing, this does not mean that it is not of value for its contribution to the local area. The Vale of Glamorgan Council has a local list of county treasures, and while the former school is not included, I would strongly encourage all local authorities to produce a local list and keep it up to date frequently.

Unfortunately, this school is not on the Vale of Glamorgan's list, and I don't know why that is. I hear what Darren Millar says about local authorities not having the capacity, but I would suggest that local authorities have a responsibility for buildings of local interest that they can add to their local lists. The demolitions of buildings that are included on a local list can be regulated by the local authority making an article 4 direction under the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995, and Cadw has provided helpful guidance to local authorities on this, and it's on the website.

The planning application to demolish the building for residential development is due to be considered by the Vale of Glamorgan Council's planning committee on 2 March. You may be interested to know that the local authority's development plan requires development proposals to preserve or enhance the architectural and historic qualities of buildings. This is not limited to statutorily or locally listed buildings, but all buildings. Therefore, the preservation of the building is a material consideration and something that must be taken into account before the council makes its decision.

Consideration of the views of local communities is an important foundation of our planning system, so I would therefore encourage everyone who is concerned about the loss of this building to urgently submit their representations to the council if they've not already done so. The matter of listing the building at national level has been concluded. The fate of the building is now in the hands of the council in deciding the planning application, but it is also open to the applicant to change the scheme, adapting the building, rather than demolishing it. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on Jack Sargeant as Chair of the Petitions Committee to respond. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn, acting Llywydd. I think that today has been a good and important debate, and I thank all Members for their contributions and the Minister for her response. We started with a powerful contribution from Joel James, who supported the petition in its entirety, I believe, and highlighted the teaching of science to women and girls in the school—a historic and important event.

We did go on to Darren Millar, who, I think, reiterated the point I was trying to make about the wider importance of buildings across Wales. You referenced the art deco property in Rhos-on-Sea and you referenced the church and the charity that you're involved with, which was intervened by colleague Rhys ab Owen who also went on to highlight his experiences with the chapels across Wales.

And then, I must say, we had absolute scenes in the Senedd, where Jenny Rathbone and Heledd Fychan agreed with colleagues Joel James and Darren Millar—it's a historic day for the Senedd, I tell you that. But we did hear from Jenny Rathbone about the Victorian pub, the Roath Park pub in her own constituency, and that those decisions that are made should be in line with the well-being of future generations Act. Heledd Fychan claimed we should be looking at new leases of life—not just saving buildings of historical importance, but new leases of life, reimagining buildings, and going further than perhaps we do already.

And then, coming to the Minister's response, the Minister did say at the start that she recognises the strength of feeling not just from this petition but those similar petitions across Wales. You referenced your own constituency within that response. And you did go on to note that it's unlikely the response would be welcomed by the petitioners because it might not be the outcome they wanted, but you urged the petitioners and those with a strength of feeling to contact their local authority and make representations to them.

I do think—again, I'll go back to my starting point—that this is an important debate today. I think this is what the Petitions Committee is all about: we get talking and raising the points that are people's priorities in their Parliament, the Welsh Senedd. So, I would urge everyone who wants to shape or influence our Parliament, their Parliament, to start or sign a petition. The process is relatively easy and straightforward, and obviously the clerking team and other people who are behind the scenes and do all the hard work—and I do thank them for all they do—are ready and waiting to help.

In closing and in concluding, acting Presiding Officer, on behalf of the Senedd committee, I'd like to say my final thank you to Sara Pedersen for submitting this petition, everyone who has signed this petition, and those contributions today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The motion is therefore to agree to note the petition. Does anybody object? No. Okay. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.