Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 2:17 pm on 1 March 2022.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:17, 1 March 2022

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, as we celebrate our national day here in Wales—and it's wonderful to see the national flower of Ukraine sitting alongside the flower of Wales, the daffodil—it is worth reflecting that, on the other side of the continent of Europe, a mad despot is trying to wipe out another sovereign nation state with brutal actions that we've all witnessed over the last five, six days, and continue to witness day in, day out now, in our newsreels. In fact, it is with sorrow, hurt and disbelief that many of us look at these actions that are unfolding, as I say, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute. I have to say, one of the images that will stick with me for the rest of my life will be the image that I saw this morning of a young child in an embrace with its mother, suffering from cancer treatment, chemotherapy treatment; the sheer fear and total terror on that little one's face was unbelievable and unimaginable.

First Minister, on these benches, we want to see as warm a welcome as possible extended from Wales to refugees coming from Ukraine, because they deserve that safety and they deserve that sanctuary. Have you, as a Welsh Government, been able to quantify the amount of help and support that we can offer the refugees that are coming out of Ukraine? Predictions indicate that it could involve the displacement of between 4 million and 5 million souls coming out of Ukraine. That is something that we haven't seen on the continent of Europe since the second world war. I think all of us thought that we would never see such images again, but we are now seeing those images. I think it's important for us to understand, whilst we all want to embrace and help the refugees, the exact quantum of help that we can, as a country, as part of the United Kingdom, offer those refugees here in Wales. 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:19, 1 March 2022

I thank the leader of the opposition for what he said about his party's support for the efforts that will be made to welcome refugees here in Wales. I know that's very sincerely meant by him personally and on behalf of his party. I welcome it. I think his question is a very difficult one to answer at this moment. As he says, the displacement of population from Ukraine is currently being felt most directly in those countries that directly border Ukraine, and it's very hard to know at this moment how many of those people will wish to move beyond those countries and how many will wish to stay as close as they can to where they come from in the hope that they will be able to return to their own homes as soon as they can.

I can give him the same assurance that I offered earlier, Llywydd. We have had, as a Welsh Government, regular opportunities in the last 10 days to have direct conversations with the UK Government and Governments elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I myself, at the initiative of the UK Government, have received a briefing from the national security adviser to make sure that we have the best possible information available to us for our planning. As the position becomes clearer—and it could become clearer in a way that tells us that things will be even worse than we currently fear, rather than hoping, as we must, that things will be better—we will work as closely as we can, and as co-operatively as we can, with other parts of the United Kingdom to make sure that Wales plays the fullest part we can in what has to be a national effort across the United Kingdom, but an international effort as well, with those other nations within NATO, within the European Union and beyond. Because it is only through that combined effort that the world will be able to make the answer to President Putin, so he is in no doubt about the consequences of the actions that he has embarked upon, but also deal with the humanitarian consequences that we all have to play a part in addressing. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 2:21, 1 March 2022

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. We've had many examples of refugees settling in Wales and the support that has been put in place by Welsh Government, by the UK Government and by public bodies generally, as well as private individuals. As I said in my opening remarks to you, the magnitude of what we are looking at today from Ukraine is something that we haven't had to deal with and experience since the second world war. Do you envisage—and I appreciate in your earlier responses that you alluded to meetings being held by the Minister for Social Justice and the Minister for finance tomorrow with partners in this operation—a new model having to emerge from Welsh Government and, indeed, from the United Kingdom Government, to deal with the magnitude of what we are facing, so that people can be genuinely supported in their desire either to settle in Wales or the rest of the United Kingdom, or, indeed, use it as a temporary haven whilst hopefully things stabilise back in Ukraine and Ukraine can become that proud sovereign nation that we across this Chamber want to see on the continent of Europe? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:22, 1 March 2022

Personally, Llywydd, I think we will need a different system. We were very proud to welcome families from Afghanistan to Wales, and as Members here will know, many of them lived when they first came here just across the road, literally, from the Senedd in the Urdd building. It's been one of the great pleasures for me in recent times, from the office that I work in here, outside my window, to see and hear children from Afghanistan playing safely in the streets here in Cardiff. You think of what those children have seen and experienced, and here they were in the fresh air playing children's games, speaking in Welsh to one another within a few weeks of arriving here. It lifted your spirits to see and to hear it. But we do know that the onward allocation of those families for permanent resettlement has not worked as quickly or as successfully as the Home Office had originally intended. So, there are lessons to learn, as I was asked, I think, by Mark Isherwood, and one of those lessons is I think we will need a different system if we are to cope with a different sort of refugee need, and that will involve the UK Government, of course, but working with the Government here in Wales and through us with our local authorities. 

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 2:24, 1 March 2022

Thank you, First Minister, for that answer. Given the precarious state of peace in eastern Europe today, we have no idea what the madman in the Kremlin will do next. He could choose to invade the Baltic states—members of NATO, I might add. Could you therefore confirm that you would support the decision of the UK Government to abide by its NATO obligations should article 4 be triggered, as the British Foreign Secretary has said? And could you confirm the Welsh Government's support for NATO, as you indicated earlier when you referenced NATO, in these very dangerous times that we live in? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:25, 1 March 2022

It is a terrifying prospect that the Member outlines, but he's right to do so, because, unthinkable only a few weeks ago, we have to think about what would happen if a NATO state were to be attacked in the way that Ukraine has been. We talk here about countries the same size as Wales—of Estonia and Lithuania, countries that now have the NATO protection around them but that sit right on the front line with Russia. Of course, the Welsh Government is entirely signed up to the NATO umbrella that protects us all. Every single person in this room will hope against hope that we never need to call on that. We've seen what President Putin has said just this week about the nuclear weapons that he has in his hands. I don't think any one of us would be willing easily to contemplate what might happen if that NATO protection actually needed to be called upon. But, the direct answer to the Member's question is that the Welsh Government is entirely signed up to the protections that NATO membership provides to us.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:26, 1 March 2022

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, currently, a ship carrying Russian oil is docked at Milford Haven; it arrived there on Saturday and the oil is destined for the Valero oil refinery. A second vessel, also carrying Russian oil from the oil-loading port of Primorsk in Russia, is due to arrive in Milford Haven on Friday. The UK Government has put in place sanctions to prevent Russian flagged, registered, owned or controlled vessels docking in the UK, but in this case, essentially they're getting around that by using a flag-of-convenience country, in this case the Marshall Islands. Do you agree with me that those loopholes that are clearly being used at the moment need to be closed off urgently and that not a single drop of Russian oil should be offloaded into Wales, through a Welsh port, while innocent blood is being shed in Ukraine?  

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:28, 1 March 2022

I entirely agree with the last point that the leader of Plaid Cymru has made, Llywydd. The UK Government has moved to prevent access to UK ports by vessels using the Russian flag, and it did so because there was a vessel about to embark in Scotland under those circumstances. I think it is inevitable, Llywydd, that in such a very fast-moving picture, when Governments take one action, attempts will be made to try to subvert it and get around it. When those loopholes are identified, the UK Government will need to act again to make sure that the intent of their policy, which clearly is to prevent Russian oil being disembarked at UK ports, is effective, and when there are loopholes or ways around the rules that are found—and it is inevitable that others will seek that—that the UK Government gets that information as fast as possible and is then able to act on it equally quickly.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 2:29, 1 March 2022

During Mick Antoniw and my visit to Ukraine, we met a very, very wide range of people—yes, Government Ministers, but, more importantly than that, ordinary citizens of Ukraine, trade unionists, human rights organisers, people in the women's movement and people in the LGBT community. The one thing that they were all united on was that the policy of sanctions that had been introduced so far was insufficient and that the gravity of the events required nothing short of, nothing less than, the complete and total economic, political, diplomatic and cultural isolation of Russia, including, by the way, a complete embargo on all oil and gas imports. Is that something that the Welsh Government supports in principle? And in that spirit, are you prepared, as a Welsh Government, to introduce a policy that no organisation—cultural, sporting—or, indeed, a company, through the economic contract that governs business support, that maintains active links with Russia, while the war is ongoing, or a military occupation continues, will receive any Welsh Government financial support?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:30, 1 March 2022

Well, I think it's incumbent on all parts of the United Kingdom to press for the highest level of economic sanctions, and alongside economic sanctions, those other forms of action in the fields of the arts and in sports, and other forms of contact—the highest form of barrier to those continuing, in order to, as we've said many times on the floor this afternoon, make sure that the message gets itself firmly lodged in the minds of those who are responsible for this action. And now is the moment to do that, Llywydd. It's not a matter of being wise after the event. I hope that there will be Members in the Chamber who will have the opportunity to read again the intelligence and security committee's Russia report, published in July 2020, chaired by a Conservative Member of the House of Commons, which concluded 

'in our opinion...the Government had badly underestimated the Russian threat and the response it required.'

It called, in July 2020, for enhanced sanctions against the Russian regime. That's then. Knowing what we know now, I don't think there can be any hesitation in making sure that we put every brick we can assemble in that wall of sanctions that will communicate to those responsible for the actions in Ukraine that those actions will have direct consequences for them. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 2:32, 1 March 2022

There were two further requests for acts of international solidarity that we heard from our Ukrainian friends. One of immediate practical help, and one of huge symbolic significance. The practical help that they called for was the immediate cancellation of Ukraine's foreign debt. Even as we speak, in the midst of war, the Ukrainian Government is having to provide servicing of its foreign debt up to $0.5 billion a month—money that it clearly doesn't have.

The symbolic call following President Zelenskyy's signing of the application for EU membership by Ukraine yesterday is for the European Union to signal that they are committed to Ukraine's membership of the European Union, and they will fast-track it. What better way to symbolise the fact that Ukraine is a democratic country, and that the values that are at the heart of the European Union require a positive response to Ukraine's request for membership yesterday?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:33, 1 March 2022

Well, Llywydd, I agree entirely with Adam Price that we've by no means exhausted the actions that need to be taken. Russia continues to earn $1 billion a day from the sale of gas and oil into Europe, and, at the same time, Ukraine is paying, as the Member said, $0.5 billion in servicing its debt, again to the west. And in the circumstances we are seeing, surely that cannot be right.

And on the second point, the foreign debt point, then there are actions that lie directly in the hands of sovereign Governments that they could take now. I understand that the President of Ukraine has addressed the European Parliament this morning. I will be in Brussels myself tomorrow, Llywydd, as part of St David's Day celebrations, and reaffirming our links with those important nations and regions in Europe. I will be meeting the Vice President of the European Parliament as part of that visit, and I'm looking forward to the opportunity to discuss the President of Ukraine's address to the European Parliament, and the actions I understand the Parliament has already taken to begin the response to which the leader of Plaid Cymru has referred this afternoon.