Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:53 pm on 8 March 2022.
I thank the Member for the questions. I'm not sure how far linked and how closely linked they are to the plan, but I'm happy to address the points that I think are being made. Because, again, in my past, when I've run equal pay claims, you very quickly get to see what looks unusual, and you then have to try and prove them. So, for example, in areas where there are gender-segregated jobs and different negotiation structures, you often find, even in the same employer, there are different outcomes in terms of pay structures. And that has created a huge problem for employers in the public and some parts of the private sector. The difficulty is that actually running a legal claim is a blunt tool to try and achieve it, and you often find people invest lots of money in defending claims, rather than looking at what they can do to address their pay systems to make sure they properly reward people for the work that they're doing. That's where people who really are doing the work should be valued and paid the same, rather than challenges where you tend to find people concentrating in different professions entirely.
I take on board your point around some of the work on energy assessing. Well, some of this is about promoting opportunities and being clear that this isn't just man's work or woman's work. To be really clear, there are jobs for people with skills and talent, and to be clear that that talent exists in all parts of the country. And that's what we're trying to do in giving people the skills and the opportunities to re-enter the workforce. I met a single dad and a single mum who'd been helped by the programmes that we had provided, and they were now in work because of the help and support we had provided. But it is about making clear that we tried to remove some of those barriers in the way that people see themselves, as well as the way they're seen by other people. And that's a bigger challenge, because, actually, lots of gender bias that we talk about starts off from before people are born and then after they're born.
I don't know how many of you still wander up and down aisles with children's clothing and books, but you still see an awful lot of pink for those things that are for women—and I'm wearing a pink shirt by coincidence today. But, when you look at the messages on people's clothing, and I recently saw messages around this, the messages that girls are given about who they should be and what they should do are very different from the messages that boys are given at a very young age. And, actually, part of our challenge is how we get through some of that, because without knowing it, we end up growing up with those assumptions about ourselves and about other people. What we are doing with this plan is part of what we should do as a Government in making clear that the opportunities are there for everyone, and we recognise that people are not in the same position and we deliberately want to do something about righting that and making sure that people who do have different responsibilities and different outcomes have a better chance because of the action that this Government will take.