We'll move on now to item 5, a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21 on the devolution of policing, and I call on Mike Hedges to move the motion.

Motion NDM7925 Mike Hedges, Alun Davies, Delyth Jewell, Jane Dodds, Rhys ab Owen

Supported by Sarah Murphy

To propose that the Senedd:

Supports the devolution of policing.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I believe the case for devolving policing is overwhelming. I am very pleased to open the debate. I thank my co-sponsors, one of whom, Rhys ab Owen, will be replying to the debate. This type of debate gives the Senedd an opportunity to show the direction of travel it wants devolution to take. Many of the levers that affect levels of crime have already been devolved to Wales, such as community safety, education, training, jobs, mental health services, alcohol and drug treatment, housing, healthy communities, as well as many other services relating to social factors. Tackling crime, reducing offending and reoffending necessitates working with other public services, which already operate at different levels across Wales. For example, support for those with mental health conditions both before they reach crisis point and need police intervention, and once they have entered the criminal system, means working with the Welsh NHS and local health boards. I believe if policing power was devolved, it would allow for much greater liaison between both services locally and by Ministers and civil servants at a strategic level within Wales, rather than between Wales and Westminster.

I think there's real potential for a successful Welsh model, which can build on the strength of devolution without cutting adrift of being part of the United Kingdom. That's why I believe this should not include the UK National Crime Agency, national security and counter-terrorism. It is important that police services continue to be able to provide mutual support for large events, which we saw with the successful NATO summit in south Wales.

Co-operation in policing clearly needs to extend not just to the British Isles, but into Europe and beyond. We know that crime and terrorism cross borders, more so now than ever before, and we need to co-ordinate measures to make sure that criminals cannot avoid charges by fleeing to Spain or other countries, which at one time seemed to be the case. It's why the Costa del Sol got called the 'Costa del Crime'.

The Welsh Government has shown the capacity for leadership and common sense, implementing policies developed by Welsh Labour, such as the investment in additional community support officers. How many people would like to stop those community support officers now? In Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire, the powers of the police and crime commissioner have been merged in the mayoral role. I wait with interest to discover why people believe that Manchester and West Yorkshire should have policing devolved and Wales should not. Policing has been devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland; Wales is the outlier, very much the outlier.

I want to look at two exceptions, the UK National Crime Agency and national security. I believe they do need to be dealt with centrally, because national security knows no borders either, so I think it's important that we deal with things where they are dealt with best, and I believe that most policing is dealt with best in Wales.

The National Crime Agency is a crime-fighting agency with national and international reach, and the mandate of power to work in partnership with other law enforcement organisations, bringing the full weight of the law to bear in cutting serious and organised crime. The border policing command is a vital part of the approach to increasing border security. The economic crime command places the National Crime Agency at the forefront of the fight against economic crime affecting the UK.

We've provided a joined-up national response to cyber and cyber enabled crime. Not only does that know no borders within Britain, it knows no borders within the world, and those people who have been the recipients of e-mails telling them how somebody out in Africa wants to give them £10 million, or $10 million, will be well aware that these things come from all over the world. I'm not sure if anybody has actually had that $10 million, but my guess is that  this cyber crime is working. People are being targeted now by cyber crime throughout Britain, telling them that they need to pay to have a test for COVID. And that, again, is the type of crime—. They don't think which side of the Welsh border it is; it's in the whole of Britain that is happening. So, it's important that these things are dealt with centrally.

What of the day-to-day policing carried out by the four Welsh police forces? Effectively, the role of the police and crime commissioners, who currently report to the Home Secretary, they should be reporting to whichever Secretary or whichever Cabinet Member we have here. And I assume that, under the current set-up, because I know that Jane Hutt is replying to this debate, it would actually be Jane Hutt. But whoever holds whatever role it is that covers that, they should be reporting to them, not reporting to the Home Secretary. 

The police don't work in isolation. When you dial 999, you don't say, 'Which service do you want? Do you want a devolved one or a non-devolved one?' You dial 999 and you ask for an emergency service. Why are three of them devolved and one isn't? 

Another argument in favour of devolving policing is the ability to better connect policing with other devolved services, such as support for victims of domestic abuse and the health service. Now, this is not a criticism of the police and crime commissioners in Wales, all four of whom I think very highly of. Two of them are personal friends, and people, I think, are doing a very good job under the circumstances in which they work. But, really, they're working to the Home Secretary, they're not working to the Minister here, and I think it's important that they are responsible to the Minister here.

The Welsh Government's expansion of community support officers, increasing their visibility, has had a positive effect on both crime and anti-social behaviour. You're more likely to see a community support officer when you're walking around the constituency or region you live in than you are to see a police officer walking around the streets. Now, that's, again, not a criticism of the police, it's just that they are the visible face of policing. Five hundred plus of those have been provided by the Welsh Government and, as a Member of this place said many years ago when we were discussing this the last time, and that was Steffan Lewis, 'Of course, the other advantage of devolving police, because of the way the Barnett formula works, we get 5 per cent more for policing in Wales than is spent at the moment.' That 5 per cent can make a big different to policing in Wales. We know that's how the Barnett formula works. And I pay tribute to Steffan Lewis who did a huge amount of work on supporting devolution of items such as policing.

I know how popular police community support officers are in Swansea East, and I know people who their first point of call when they've got a problem is to go to the local PCSO, many of whom they see walking up and down the street. Many of the older generation will remember when we had watch committees responsible for policing in Wales. During most of the twentieth century, policing was a local government function controlled by the watch committee of the relevant country or, in the case in Swansea, Cardiff, Merthyr and Newport, county borough council. We then moved from local watch committees to the police committees, with South Wales Police covering, for example, the whole of Glamorgan, but with very little control over the local police force. The replacement of police sergeants by police commissioners is the only major structural change that's taken place in policing since 1960. South Wales, Dyfed-Powys, North Wales and Gwent have been in their current form, with minor amendments in local government reorganisation in 1996, since the 1960s.

With policing devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland, it is anomalous it's not been devolved to Wales. The Northern Ireland Assembly voted in favour of it. Now, Northern Ireland you would think would be the last place you'd devolve policing, with all the problems that have existed there and with political parties in existence there and with representatives who are associated with people who had been involved in armed struggle. The vote underpinned the Hillsborough agreement, brokered between the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Fein, and stabilised the region's power-sharing Government. The Assembly then created a Department of Justice for Northern Ireland after the powers were devolved. 

If the Welsh Assembly voted in favour of devolving policing today, who thinks we'll have it devolved within a few months? But it will show what we want to happen; I think that's the important thing. We tell the Westminster Government this is the direction of travel we want to go to.

Looking at continental Europe and North America, it is Wales, again, that appears out of step. Across most of the democratic world, other than control of national security and serious crime, policing is carried out by the regional or local police forces. Law enforcement in Germany lies with the 16 federal states; each lays out the organisation and the duties of its police. Germany also has a central police force responsible for border security, protection of federal buildings, and a mobile response force that is able to help out or reinforce state police if required. Policing in the USA consists of federal agencies like the Federal Bureau of Investigation, state agencies, such as highway patrol, and local policing by county police and sheriff's departments. What these have in common is that local policing is local, and major crime and national security is dealt with at the national level.

What do the Welsh public think? A survey carried out by Beaufort Research and the Silk Commission on Devolution in Wales found that 63 per cent of the 2,000 responders polled were in favour of policing powers for Wales being devolved from central Government in England. I believe that the way forward is to devolve most policing to the National Assembly. I will say this now: I hope that we're not going to have the Conservatives saying, 'We don't want to devolve the national crime agency and national security.' I don't either; it's the normal, everyday policing that I want devolved. Just remember that, up until 1960, the large cities of Britain policed themselves without anyone outside the Home Office having any concerns. We should get back the right to police ourselves and hand local policing to the Welsh Government.  

In their evidence to the Thomas Commission on Justice in Wales, the Police Federation of England and Wales stated:

'we had concluded to The Silk Commission that "policing could be devolved" the question of whether or not is "should be devolved" is of course a political issue and decision.'

They reiterated their neutral and evidence-led stance in their briefing for this debate.

In their evidence to the Thomas commission, the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales stated,

'The Home Office currently support the Police in a wide-ranging capacity; examples of which are leadership, development, transformation, vulnerability, collaboration, intervention, prevention, security, counter terrorism and pay, pensions and conditions. Any new arrangement will need to ensure that the Governmental support for policing is not diminished or eroded and with a devolved policing structure.'

They added that the,

'Devolution of policing in Wales will be a significant change and it is vital that such a question is considered with a stringent benefits analysis and equally importantly involves the public and all stakeholders in any future redesign options.'

In this context, Gwent's former deputy chief constable, Mick Giannasi, has written that a change in the nature of Welsh Government's relationship with the police service may ultimately prove to be less productive. And my contacts in both North Wales Police and the region's police federation have repeatedly told me that they have a closer affiliation with north-west England than the rest of Wales and that there is a lack of competence in Welsh Government to handle the devolution of policing. With crime and justice operating on an east-west axis, not just in north Wales, but across Wales, North Wales Police share services including regional organised crime, firearms, intelligence, custody, property and forensics with their sister forces in north-west England. They also express concern about any desire in Welsh Government to merge the police forces in Wales as they stated that the geography and current calibrations with various English forces makes the concept of an all-Wales police force very difficult, adding that to force such a move to satisfy the egos of certain politicians should be carefully monitored. I'm quoting.

When the Assembly's Social Justice and Regeneration Committee reviewed the structure of policing in 2005—I was part of that—our report noted that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries and that cross-border partnerships must reflect operational reality—

Will you take an intervention, Mark?

I'll have one intervention.

We are talking about devolving the police, not devolving crime.

Yes, and policing must reflect demographic, geographic and historic reality and where crime actually happens and how it moves, not the aspirations or otherwise of certain politicians.

The work of the Assembly's sub-committee considering the then proposed Welsh police merger, of which I was a member, led to police mergers being aborted across England and Wales. As I said in the February 2006 debate on this, the police authorities told us that the additional all-Wales annual cost of reorganisation would be up to £57 million, with the chief constable saying that it would be even more. And that was 16 years ago.

Comparison is made, of course, with Scotland and Northern Ireland, where policing is a devolved matter, but for reasons of geography and history, the situation in Wales is entirely different. Successive UK Governments retained a commitment to re-devolve policing in Northern Ireland after direct rule ended, and if you don't understand why, I'd check your history books.

Forty-eight per cent of people in Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England and 90 per cent within 50 miles and that reflects the crime patterns. In contrast, only 5 per cent of the combined populations of Scotland and England live within 50 miles of the border between those countries. Despite this, the Thomas report makes only one reference to the key issue of cross-border criminality, in the context of county lines, and the only solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces, in collaboration with other agencies, without any reference to establish joint working with neighbouring partners across the invisible crime and justice border with England.

Well, as I learned when I visited Titan, the north-west regional organised crime unit, a collaboration of North Wales Police and five north-west England forces, all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border, east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission by the chief constables and police and crime commissioners in Wales was largely 'ignored'—I quote—in the commission's report.

As I said here last month, devolution of policing would therefore be operational insanity and financial lunacy. The devolution of policing—[Interruption.]

Listen to the evidence, stop making silly comments, grow up, and listen to the experts, who I'm actually quoting here.

The devolution of policing would deliver the opposite of real devolution, threatening to take more powers from the Welsh regions, and to centralise these in Cardiff—

The Member must conclude now.

[Inaudible.]—the power to hire and fire chief constables. I'll conclude. Given Labour Welsh Government's record of creeping and often intimidatory politicisation of devolved public services, this is a chilling proposition. [Interruption.] I can introduce you to the whistleblowers who are victims of what I've just described.

I'm pleased that we're having this debate, and I'm very grateful to Mike Hedges for bringing it forward. There is increasing consensus that responsibility for policing should be devolved to this place, and that it makes no sense constitutionally or practically for these issues to be governed elsewhere. I believe that policing should be local. Members here will be familiar with the constitutional arguments that now that Wales makes its own law, it makes sense that we should be responsible for implementing it too, but there is also an ethical justification for devolution too.

The English word 'policing' comes from the Ancient Greek 'polis', which has a double meaning, namely the city and the citizens living within that city. So, the history and concept of the word links the institution with its people. The police don't simply administer the law, they are an incarnation of the law on our streets. And of course, the Welsh word 'heddlu' literally means 'peace force'.

But, Deputy Llywydd, we don't need to look back over centuries to see the link between authority and the people through the police, and how that, unfortunately, is being eroded. We have seen damaging erosion over recent years in terms of public trust in the police. Although the vast majority are good and conscientious people, the damage is done by a minority and a culture that needs to change. It's not just a problem for the Met in London, it's a problem in Wales too. Research by Dr Robert Jones from the Wales Governance Centre this week shows that black people are seven times more likely to be stopped and searched by police than white people.

This is true of the justice system too, as well as the police. Recent research by Dr Jones shows that people are five times more likely of being imprisoned if they are black, as compared to white people. And sentences for black, Asian and mixed race people are significantly higher than they are for white people, on average. And the deaths of Mohamud Hassan and Mouayed Bashir, after they came into contact with South Wales Police, continue to pose serious questions.

We've had debates in this Senedd over recent months on spiking, stalking, and there have been questions raised on the appallingly low conviction rates in rape cases and male violence against women. Yes, these facts are part of broader, structural problems within society, but they are not exceptions—they are an emergency alarm, telling us that something is gravely amiss. In devolving policing, as well as the justice system, we can start to tackle these deep-set inequalities within our society. We can link justice and policing with health, education and social policy, as Lord Thomas acknowledged. We can look seriously for the reasons for crime in order to prevent it from happening in the first instance, rather than simply continuing with the vicious cycle of crime and punishment. 

This Senedd doesn't have the powers to solve the problems with the Met police, but there is an incontrovertible case for devolving the powers to resolve our own problems to this place. By implementing a justice system that is more just and policing policies that are more enlightened, we can restore public trust in our systems, reduce crime and, through that, safeguard the public from avoidable harm.

The police should work for the people. They should be visible, transparent and accountable. But this will not happen as we continue with the current system, which clearly isn't working. Policing should be local, which means that decisions should be made as close to the people as is possible. 

Thank you to Mike for tabling this debate. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to participate. 

I'd like to start with a very quick response to my colleague Mark Isherwood. And I really do understand his passion and the need for us to look back and to see what has worked and what hasn't. But I want to look forward. And this isn't, as we've heard, about the devolution of crime. This is about us looking at how we respond to it, and how we can prevent crime as well. This is about us in Wales taking power back to say, 'This is how we want to do it differently to what is happening at the moment.' And I want to focus on the situation with women, particularly women in prisons. 

There are seven facts I just want to lay before you. Women are more likely than male prisoners to serve short sentences for non-violent offences. The average distance a woman is held from home is 63 miles. Over half the women in prison report having suffered domestic violence or emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child. Women are more likely than men to self-harm whilst in prison. And, finally, black and minority ethnic women are more than twice as likely to be arrested than white women. 

The female offender strategy, published in 2018, four years ago, was designed to deliver vast improvements on community-based solutions, well-being and better custody. But the National Audit Office in England said that since the strategy was published in 2018, the UK Government had made limited progress towards its goals because it had not prioritised investment in this work. And funding for the strategy was less than half of the minimum £40 million that officials estimated would be needed, but £150 million was found to fund an additional 500 women's prison places when it was needed, against the direction of travel under the new strategy.

I want us to look differently at how we treat women in our prisons, and to look at how we deal with women offenders. We can do better here in Wales; I know that. Let's not imprison our women; let's look at community sentences, women's centres, how we look at residential alternatives, some of those being with children, not just with babies, and much, much smaller units. I believe that improving how the criminal justice system responds to the needs of women should be at the heart of that call, and for the call for devolution of powers to Wales, which I hope that the Minister can address in response to today's debate. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

May I begin by saying how much I agree with what Jane Dodds has just said? And I think much of what I will have to say will complement those comments.

I think if we had responsibility here in Wales, Dirprwy Lywydd, for policing, and indeed criminal justice, we would have a much more progressive, and indeed productive, system that would really improve life for our communities here in Wales, because I think there is a discredited UK model that does involve sending more people to prison per head of population than virtually any other country, if not any other country in western Europe. And many of those people, as we know, have mental health issues, are illiterate, have alcohol and drug misuse problems and are really, in many ways, victims themselves in our communities and society.

If we had a different model, which was much more about prevention and preventing reoffending when people do come into the criminal justice system, then we'd have fewer victims of crime, we'd have fewer people who are incarcerated and in the criminal justice system with all the misery that brings for themselves and their families. We badly need a more enlightened approach. It would very much benefit women, as Jane said, it would complement our youth service here in Wales and, indeed, our drug and alcohol abuse services as well. I give way to Mark Isherwood. 

Do you recognise, as has been debated here, and referred to by the Counsel General, that the UK Government has announced precisely that policy in relation to women—that they should not be in prison, they should be in the community—and that they're funding a series of new women's centres, including one in Wales? The Counsel General told us last November in this Chamber that that was developing well and discussions were ongoing to establish that centre.

I think we hear a lot of rhetoric from the UK Government, Mark, but it's not always evidenced in practice. Yes, there may be individual examples, but we want to see a consistent approach, in terms of policing and criminal justice, that moves on to that more, what I would say, progressive and enlightened territory that we've already heard about in this debate today, which I think is badly needed.

I know, for example, from providers of drug and alcohol misuse services, that they feel that they are trying to serve two masters, as it were, in Wales. They've got the Home Office, and Home Office policies on illicit drugs, for example, which are very much about criminalisation and the criminal justice route, and then they've got Welsh Government policies, which are much more health-orientated and about prevention and treatment. It's not easy to serve two masters in that way, and I know those who provide those crucial drug and alcohol misuse services feel that they're not operating to maximum efficiency and effectiveness as a result. We've got many initiatives. I know that in Newport, Positive Futures, which is run through Newport Live, the leisure trust in Newport, and seeks to work with young people and divert them from the criminal justice route, find it difficult, because they're, again, working within this non-devolved system of policing, although they're funded partly, at least, by the police and crime commissioner. Life would be much easier for them if there was a more consistent, integrated and joined-up approach. 

There are many regional variations across Wales, in fact, in policing, and the way that commissioning takes place jointly with the health services or not. Much of that could be better integrated and not varied across Wales if we had Welsh Government dealing with policing as well as the health service here in Wales. We've heard about domestic abuse services; that is another example. I think that that argument about a better fit between policing and devolved services if policing was devolved is very well established and recognised, and much work within the Senedd points in that direction, including work by our health committee, I think, back in 2019, when they made important recommendations about mental health in policing and police custody. I know that within Gwent the police service works very closely with mental health services. They have a team of mental health professionals trying to deal with the very acute strain that policing comes under, because police are not mental health professionals, but are, very often, faced with these mental health issues in carrying out their policing duties, and they are also trying to train their own police force to a much greater extent, as well as working with the health service. I think that fit between mental health services and policing is one that would benefit greatly if we had devolution of policing. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, I see that, as ever, time is short. Can I just say that I think most people would recognise that eventually policing in Wales will be devolved? It's a question of when. There are so many important benefits. The sooner that devolution takes place, the better.  

It's a real pleasure to participate in this debate and follow that contribution from John Griffiths, and also the contributions from Jane Dodds and other in this debate. When I took responsibility for the policy area in the last Government, it shocked me just how poorly the whole criminal justice system serves Wales. It cannot be seen as a success when, for however long we've had the joint England and Wales jurisdiction, women are treated so appallingly by the whole of that system. We didn't have a secure facility for anyone in north Wales until a few years ago. For centuries, the needs of people in north Wales were simply ignored by the criminal justice system. The needs of women across the whole of this country are still being ignored. I recognise the point that Mark Isherwood made about the latest UK Government plan, but, you know, they have had since 1536. So, you'll have to excuse my cynicism when I hear these things. This has been a journey for us, and this has been a journey that we've participated in, sometimes at different speeds, but usually—[Interruption.] Yes, I will give way.

Do you agree that, in 1536, the penal systems of every place across the world were treating women and men abominably within the criminal justice system?

Yes, but most have improved considerably since then. Unfortunately, the system that serves Wales is yet to find a way of serving women, and you need to reflect on that in making your argument.

It's an important point that we need to raise, because we have been on a journey here. I remember sitting in Government offices having long conversations with Carl Sargeant on these matters when he talked about adverse childhood experiences and of the role of police in dealing with the consequences of that. I remember how we developed our thinking together on lots of different issues, with the police not being something that is foreign or outside of our communities but police as part of our community, as a part of a suite and range of public services delivering for people within our communities.

I hope and believe that policing, when it is devolved—. And I think it will be devolved at some point. The question to ask yourselves is: how many people must suffer before that happens? When we do devolve policing, I hope that we are able to do things differently. The points made by Rhys ab Owen in First Minister's questions yesterday are another standing rebuke to the current criminal justice system. We are not treating people properly in this country and we need to recognise that. When we devolve policing, we don't simply devolve the responsibility, we don't simply provide, Mark, another politician with another feather in another cap, but we then do things differently.

Do you know what I want to see? I want to see policing as a part integrated into our other services, but I also want to see it being held to account differently. I would like to see a greater role for local government, for example, in holding local police forces to account. I would like to understand how local people can have a greater say in how policing is delivered in our local communities. Because the model we have at the moment does not provide for that, and I don't believe anybody seriously argues that it does so.

The findings of the Thomas commission on these matters were absolutely devastating. They were devastating—possibly the most important piece of work that we've seen completed and published since the introduction of devolved Government over 20 years ago. Policing and the criminal justice system should be at the heart of Government, but they're failing the country they're supposed to serve. And people recognise that of course, because the UK Government is devolving policing in England—it is devolving policing in England. It recognises the power of the argument of democracy and accountability in delivery of police services, everywhere except in Wales.

Wales is the only part of this kingdom where there is no local control of policing, where there is no local accountability of policing. And we are told and we are invited to believe that that's a good thing—that it's a good thing that we don't have that level of democratic accountability, that it's a good thing that we don't have that level of local integration, that it's a good thing that we don't have any level of local support and control of the criminal justice system and the police. I will bring my remarks to a close. I don't believe that history supports that case. I don't believe that the facts sustain that argument. And I don't believe that the future will entertain that argument either.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Mike Hedges for bringing this Member debate before the Senedd, and for all the contributions this afternoon, which are important in terms of this very key issue. The Welsh Government will be supporting this motion.

It's been over two years since the Thomas commission published its report on justice in Wales. The report is the most comprehensive exercise ever undertaken, examining the state of the justice system in Wales, and it sets out a clear evidence-based need for action. The Thomas commission recommended policing and crime reduction policy be determined in Wales, to ensure policing is firmly integrated within the same policy and legislative framework as health, local government and other public services, as has been described today in this debate, with very many clear examples. These services need to work together holistically to prevent offending and reoffending in the way that Jane Dodds described regarding women caught up in the criminal justice system. And John Griffiths endorsed this in terms of the preventative approach being the right way forward. But the Thomas commission recommended that this integration, policy and legislative, can only be achieved through the devolution of policing. We strongly support that. Only when we have full oversight of the justice system in Wales will we be able to fully align delivery with the needs and priorities of the people and communities of Wales.

Yes, there is a constitutional element. Wales finds itself in a position where it can make laws but cannot enforce them. The Senedd is the only Parliament in the common-law world that we know of that can legislate without the jurisdiction to enforce its own laws. This is why we're pursuing the case for devolution of justice and policing, and it remains a firm ministerial commitment within our programme for government, which people in Wales voted for overwhelmingly last year. The second edition of 'Reforming our Union', published in June 2021, consolidated this position. It includes 20 propositions to put the union on a sustainable footing for the future, including the proposition that devolved institutions should be responsible for policing and the administration of justice. Devolution of policing is needed to make the constitutional settlement coherent and practical. The devolution of justice and policing to Wales should and will happen. It is a question of when, not if. This is not merely political sentiment; justice is better delivered at a more localised level, where it can be tailored, prioritised and influenced according to its societal needs. It is welcoming that the police and crime commissioners in Wales are supportive of the case for devolution. We're looking forward to engaging with them and other stakeholders on this issue. I do value my regular liaison with the police and crime commissioners' rotating leads, and it's been very beneficial in terms of practical outcomes.

We recognise that the UK Government takes a different position from us, and we're working on a justice publication that will outline how we're already actively enabling the delivery of justice services in Wales. This includes initiatives that prevent people coming into contact with the justice system in the first place, as well as activity that helps people who are already in contact with the system to make the journey away from it. This publication will only reinforce the point made by the Thomas commission that policing is intrinsically intertwined with the devolved services that support people and prevent crime. It will also underline that we're already delivering on our distinct vision for how criminal justice should work in Wales. In line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we're supporting a preventative, collaborative approach founded on the evidence of what works to break inter-generational cycles of reoffending. Our work with partners is at the centre of this vision. Wales already works collaboratively, breaching the difficult fault lines that permeate our reserved and devolved services. We share the collective goal of ensuring the effective delivery of justice in Wales.

The current devolution settlement has created a myriad of unnecessary challenges for policing in Wales. Despite these, police in Wales have worked tirelessly, in partnership with us, to circumvent the legislative shortcomings. In particular, the Welsh Government would not have succeeded in its emergency response to the COVID pandemic without the exceptionally strong and collaborative working relationship with Welsh police forces and with other justice agencies who play a vital role to engage with people and enforce our regulations where necessary. This is a partnership that has strengthened further as a result of the pandemic, and the partnership approach is also evident in the programme for government commitments we're delivering, together with police and crime commissioners and police forces in Wales. Our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, which builds on what's already worked so well to improve outcomes for women and young people in the justice system, is a perfect example, and I will co-chair the national implementation board for the strategy with police and crime commissioner Dafydd Llywelyn, working together to make Wales a safer place for women and girls.

Our race equality action plan ambition of becoming an anti-racist Wales allows us to work together to collectively bring about tangible change. Criminal justice in Wales has always made this a priority, and we're working closely with them on their race equality plan to ensure there is consistency across both, and we welcome the strong commitment from our justice partners to be part of the solution to eradicate racism. But as Delyth Jewell has highlighted, the figures published by the Wales Governance Centre in relation to stop and search, as the First Minister also commented on in the Chamber yesterday, are truly shocking. And that's why we have a commitment in the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru to ensure that justice elements in the race equality plan are robust and address the clear evidence of disproportionality within the justice system.

We're also committed to keeping our community safe and the crucial role of neighbourhood policing, which has been expressed this afternoon. That's why our programme for government commits to maintaining funding for the 500 police community support officers and to increase the number by 100. This is where, again, in all our communities, we can see the power and the strength of those police community support officers engaging with the people and communities at the front, absolutely in everything that affects people's lives and communities.

The policing partnership board for Wales, which meets quarterly, and is chaired either by myself or by the First Minister, provides a valuable opportunity for policing in Wales and Welsh Government to tackle these important issues for Wales that cut across devolved and non-devolved aspects of public service. Even without devolution of policing, we achieve so much when we work in partnership with our police forces and PCCs, but just imagine what we could achieve for the people of Wales if policing was devolved, and I am today urging you to support me in agreeing this motion. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Rhys ab Owen to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you very much to my colleague Mike Hedges for tabling this debate today. Thank you also to John Griffiths for his work chairing the cross-party group on police, an important job of work, and also to my colleague Alun Davies. When he was a Minister—remember he was a Minister at one time—Alun Davies established the Welsh policing board, an important group that Jane Hutt has just reminded us of.

Because this is not a new debate. Like last week, with St David's Day, we have been here before, and, let me say this quietly to you over there, it has previously had Tory support. Back in the early 1990s, Lord Hunt, the then Secretary of State for Wales, had come to an agreement with Ken Clarke, the Home Secretary, to devolve justice to the Welsh Office. Now, that was stopped because of the bureaucracy of the Home Office, the empire building within the Home Office—civil servants did not want to let it go. But the Conservative Party, back in the 1990s, were in favour of devolving it, and if it had been, we wouldn't have this debate now, it would already have been devolved. And do you remember Boris Johnson in 2014? He wasn't just satisfied with policing, he wanted the whole criminal justice system devolved to London. Where's the logic there that he wants all the criminal justice devolved to London, but we can't even have policing here in Wales?

Whatever Mark Isherwood says, it does have the support of police officers at every level. Look at the brief, Mark Isherwood, we had from the Police Federation, the shift that's happened since the Silk commission, they are now—. Even though still in neutral stance, the question they're asking now is, 'Why shouldn't it be devolved?' It's a huge shift, and it has the support of every PCC, and, despite their neutral stance, the support of every chief constable in Wales. Peter Vaughan, the highly respected former chief constable of South Wales Police has been a firm advocate of the devolution of policing.

Now, the cross-border issue that Mark Isherwood has raised once again—it is incredible. This is the same party that last week voted in favour of St David's Day being a bank holiday in Wales, separate to England. Just imagine the chaos: a bank holiday in Wales on 1 March and not in England. Look at the cross-border chaos that would create. And, gosh, what about Luxembourg? How do they survive with their own police force? 

Now, as John Griffiths, as Mike Hedges, as Alun Davies has reminded us, policing is not an island, it's not isolated—it's completely aligned with sectors that are devolved to this place. Every 13 minutes, South Wales Police receives a report relating to a mental health issue, and of those incidents, which police officers have to attend, only 4 per cent require the exercise of police powers. 

Now, funding—funding hasn't been mentioned this afternoon. Funding of the police in Wales is very complex, and Alun Davies alluded to this—the lack of accountability that leads to. Now, funding comes from the Home Office, from the Welsh Government as part of the local government finance settlement, and, thirdly, from local police precept, and finally from the Welsh Government, as Mike Hedges said, funding the 600 community support officers. More funding comes from Wales through the police forces than from the Home Office: 67 per cent of the funding of Welsh police forces comes from Wales, and yet there's a lack of accountability in this place. Now, £113.47 million will be spent in the next budget year on Welsh police forces—Welsh Government money. And through Welsh Government funding, and not setting a limit on council tax precept, we have not seen the huge cut in police numbers in Wales that we saw in England.

Now, finally, the political symmetry argument. I've not heard a single good argument why policing is devolved to Greater Manchester and London and not to Wales. If there are cross-border issues, Mark, in Wales, what about Greater Manchester and London? Go on, Mark.

Do you recognise that the devolution to Manchester, for example, you refer to, are the powers of police and crime commissioners? We have those in Wales. If you're talking still, however, about merging into a single force and having powers in the Government, then you're talking about political decision making over the hiring and firing of chief constables.

Well, that exists already with police and crime commissioners, and this is executive devolution in Manchester and London, which is completely different. And nobody here has mentioned the unification of the Welsh police force except for you, Mark Isherwood. The Thomas commission did not recommend it; the Silk commission did not recommend it.

Now, the political symmetry—if you really are that concerned about the union, why can't we have political symmetry within the union? Or is Wales inferior to other places, so that we can't have control of policing? And the 'cannot enforce laws' point by Jane Hutt—and I'll come to an end at this point, Dirprwy Lywydd—we saw it in the COVID pandemic, didn't we? Welsh police forces enforcing Welsh laws, but yet there was no accountability to the Welsh Government, and no accountability to this place. We've been reminded by Jane Dodds and by Delyth Jewell that the current system does not work. Well, I look forward to the day, like Mike Hedges said, when I can call Jane Hutt the Welsh justice Minister. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see that there is an objection, so we will defer voting on the motion until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.