This is a really very significant matter of public policy here in Wales and he's absolutely right: the difference between different local authorities in Wales is absolutely striking and, to my mind, answers the point that is sometimes made that what the figures reflect are just different socioeconomic conditions in different parts of Wales. If that were the case, how would that explain the outstanding success of Neath Port Talbot council in more recent times in driving down the numbers that they have in care, with a further 21 per cent reduction in the last year alone? How does that explain why a council like Carmarthenshire has, throughout the period of devolution, succeeded in keeping its numbers down, while other councils with very similar characteristics have seen such sharp rises? Well, here are three possible explanations for it, Llywydd. One, and I think the most significant, is local practice cultures. It's just—. I was lucky enough to visit, with my colleague Julie Morgan, Carmarthenshire council and to talk to front-line workers and their supervisors, and the strength of the local culture, determined to do everything it could to keep families reunited, was, I think, the most powerful reason why it has had that success.

Then there is local leadership. In Neath Port Talbot, the point at which their numbers begin to fall is associated in my mind with the appointment of a new director of social services and a new leader of children's services, and they have demonstrated a powerful determination to turn around the pattern that they inherited as a council.

And then thirdly—and this is in the Thomas review, as the Member will know—there is the practice of the courts as well, and that varies from part of Wales to part of Wales, and we have to be able to draw into the conversation judges who sit in the family division. The president of the family division at a England-and-Wales level has recently said that it is the single most important issue in front of him to understand and address the rise in reception of children into care across the whole of England and Wales. And the position in Wales, Llywydd, is worse: we take more children away from their families in Wales, and we've done it at an accelerating rate compared to parts of England that look like comparable parts of Wales. That is why the issue is so urgent, but it's also why we can have some optimism about it. Things can be and are being done differently and we need that better approach to be adopted throughout Wales.