Right. We'll move on now to the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, on religious buildings, and I call on Mike Hedges.

Motion NDM7953 Mike Hedges, Darren Millar, Jane Dodds, Rhys ab Owen

Supported by Alun Davies, Russell George, Sam Rowlands

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the continuing closure of religious buildings, including churches and chapels, throughout Wales.

2. Calls upon the Welsh Government to work with the different denominations in Wales to discuss the future of these buildings.

Motion moved.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. I would like to thank my co-sponsors and those who supported the motion for this debate. Jane Dodds will be responding to the debate.

This debate is not about religion, it's about our built heritage. It's about the importance of church and chapel buildings in our community. Members cannot have failed to notice the continuing closure of religious buildings, including churches and chapels, in their own constituencies. In recent decades, we have seen a gradual and continual decline in what can be referred to as the two great traditions of the nineteenth and early twentieth-century Welsh society: that being the tradition of attending the local chapel and the local public house.

Wales is often considered the land of castles, but we have substantially more chapels, churches and other religious buildings across Wales than we have castles. We have some great church buildings and chapels, such as St David's cathedral and Tabernacle chapel in Morriston, which has been described as the cathedral of nonconformity, as well as many others of historical significance and architectural merit. Wales’s ecclesiastical history and heritage is an incredibly significant part of our built and cultural heritage. Many who do not attend the chapels or churches of Wales attach a huge significance to their architectural merit and the status they carry within their communities. Ask someone about St David's, and they will mention the cathedral. Ask people about Morriston, and the most likely response will be Tabernacle chapel.

As you look around Wales, it is obvious that, in this day and age, Wales now has a huge excess of chapels and churches for its current religious needs. What we have seen in response to this overprovision is the closure of many, in an attempt to not only save money, but also to save some of the really magnificent buildings of the same denomination.

The upkeep of these remarkable buildings has fallen on the shoulders of the remaining members of the congregation, most of whom vary from the elderly to the very elderly. As one deacon said to me, 'We inherited this chapel from our parents, but our children do not want to inherit it from us.' The same deacon said, 'What I like most about going to chapel is that it's the only place where I, as someone over 60, am considered one of the young members.' The congregations are declining, and you have got to remember how many chapels there still are. According to Blwyddiadur Undeb yr Annibynwyr, there are over 600 independent chapels in Wales and four independent Welsh chapels in England, but that number will almost certainly continue to decline.

We have witnessed former chapels being sympathetically adapted or converted for a number of different uses, ranging from flats, which are the most common, to houses, businesses, restaurants, offices, community centres, and, in some cases, converted to places of worship for other religions. Unfortunately, others have become derelict, burned down, or have fallen down. One notable example of a former Swansea chapel that has been sympathetically adapted is the chapel of Christmas Evans, which now hosts the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Swansea offices, but they allow people to visit and see its plaque commemorating Christmas Evans. It is amazing how many people visit, despite the fact it is not advertised, you have to engage in substantial research to find out where it is, and, after having done that, you have to arrange with the NSPCC to visit.

There are people, such as Daniel James—better known as Gwyrosydd—the composer of 'Calon Lân', buried at Mynyddbach chapel, and Evan Roberts, the preacher who led the great revival from Moriah chapel in Loughor. These were just two of the great preachers and hymn writers from Wales. I could fill the whole speech going through famous Welsh hymn writers and—[Interruption.] More worryingly, I might start mentioning relatives of other Members in here. [Laughter.]

But, as I say, most of the smaller chapels and churches have been sympathetically changed into housing or offices. Within Swansea East, concentrating on Morriston, where I live, and Plasmarl, where I was born, I will take you through the position of the chapels and churches. Philadelphia chapel in Morriston, a former Methodist chapel, has been converted into offices and flats. Calfaria chapel, Soar chapel and Seion merged to form Seion Newydd, which I attend. Calfaria chapel has fallen down. All you can actually see where Calfaria chapel was is stones on the ground, and that was a chapel in use up until 50 years ago. And now all you've got is stones on the ground, at the top of Banwell Street in Morriston.

Soar has become a part of the Catholic Church, and is used as a centre for small concerts and events. St John's church, known locally as the church in the middle of the road—it's the only building on the roundabout—is undergoing renovation to become a cafe, gallery and commercial unit on the ground floor and mezzanine floor, with three loft-style flats above it. I used to describe it as the only Welsh-speaking Church in Wales church, but I've apparently been told there are others. But it's one of the very few Welsh-speaking Church in Wales churches in Wales. It's a phenomenal building, but it's been left for 10, 15 years; it's now coming back into use. Grove mission has been turned into flats.

Most of the other chapels have been sympathetically turned into flats or houses, or, in the case of one, turned into a care home for people with learning difficulties. Some of these renovations, such as Grove mission, have been excellent, leaving the outer facade and sympathetically remodelling inside. Mynyddbach chapel has been restored after several years of being empty, and is now the Daniel James Gwyrosydd centre. Both the church in Bonymaen and the church in Portmead have been turned into Faith in Families centres, and are doing an excellent job working with parents and children. And can I just say what a good job Faith in Families do in my constituency?

This is where the good news ends. Horeb chapel in Morriston was demolished, and a housing association built flats on the site. St Paul’s church in Landore has been empty for several years. It is a large church, and whilst there have been several suggestions of use, nothing has happened. Libanus chapel in Cwmbwrla, after being empty for several years, burned down, and was partially demolished on the grounds of safety. It has two walls currently left standing, which of course Cadw still list. Cwm chapel, which was also the scene of a fire, has been demolished, despite being listed by Cadw. Aenon in Heol Las has closed, with no imminent plans for it coming back into an alternative use. The same is true of Bethania in Morriston town centre. Moriah chapel, where my father-in-law was the only remaining deacon, closed, has been sold several times and has planning permission for conversion into flats, but no development has taken place.

There are far more chapels and church buildings than there are people wanting to use them for worship. It takes us to what happens next. Now it is mainly the larger churches and chapels that remain. They cannot easily be converted into flats or offices as the smaller ones were. Most are listed, including Tabernacle in Morriston, which is a grade I listed building. The smaller churches and chapels, they've closed. There's no problem. The easy low-lying fruit, the easy changes, that's actually happened. And can I just I say, there's generally been a good job done? Not everywhere, but, in general, a good job done. 

The action I am asking that the Welsh Government works on with the different denominations in Wales is to discuss the future of these buildings. Cadw listing buildings is not the answer, and sometimes it's part of the problem, in that you cannot make changes to the building, it will sit there until it falls down or is burned down, and far too many buildings end up being burned down when they're left empty for long periods of time. 

Wales has a huge reputation for its preachers, church and chapel buildings, which is something we need to build on. I think we need to look at the American tourism market; we need to produce denominational tours in Wales. It's not just America, but countries in east Asia, such as Singapore. We have got the situation where New Siloh in Landore, one of the largest nineteenth century chapels, used to sit over 1,000 people, but they were a lot thinner in those days—[Laughter.]—so now it only sits about 600. But it has been taken over by a church in Singapore. Prior to being taken over, it had a congregation of seven, but it only had that large congregation because two chapels had merged into it to give it five and two to give it seven.

So, the question is: should we in Wales be aiming at the American tourist market? Should we be aiming some of our tourism advertising to promote our great religious history, its people and its buildings? I think there is a huge opportunity to promote tourism relating to our chapels, churches and the great preachers and hymn writers. This is an opportunity that we in Wales need to take before it is too late. We can save some. It is not possible to save them all. I urge the Welsh Government to talk to the different denominations and produce a strategy for the churches and chapels of Wales.

Firstly, we need a priority list. Secondly, we need a plan of how buildings can be used in the future—offices, flats and houses are all possible. This will work, as I have illustrated earlier. Turning them into community buildings must be an option. This will need financial support and community buy-in. What we cannot do is leave a large number of elderly people as the sole guardians of our heritage. We protect the castles of our Norman conquerors; we should do the same for the major chapels of what was for many of us our grandparents and great grandparents a place of worship and a major community centre. If this motion is passed and the Government does nothing, or it fails to pass, what will happen is that more and more of these buildings will close. More will become derelict, and a large part of our history will be lost. Now is the time for action. In 10 years’ time it will be too late for many of these buildings.

Can I also ask for a national museum for our religious history? We've got a wool museum, an industrial and maritime museum, we've got a slate museum. I just think that we ought to be having a museum to carry on and show our religious history, because, although it's been a living history for many of us, in 50 years' time, it won't be the living history for the people then. So, please can I urge the Government to think of that? And if they're looking for a site, can I throw in Tabernacle?

Thank you, and first I'd like to put on record my thanks to Mike Hedges for submitting this extremely important Member's debate on religious buildings, and also my thanks to Darren Millar, Jane Dodds and Rhys ab Owen for co-submitting. I'd also like to highlight my register of interests—I'm a trustee of a church as well. 

It's a pleasure, of course, to be called as a supporter to this motion and to speak here today. As the motion states, it's extremely concerning that we continue to see the closure of religious buildings up and down Wales, and I'm sure all Members here today will agree that faith is an important aspect of Welsh life. Religious buildings are often the heart of communities, and, at times, bring all parts of our community together. Even for non-believers, faith is what many people reach out to in times of need, and it's often these buildings that symbolise the importance of this faith and the support that faith has to offer. 

As someone who has been brought up through church, as the son of a church minister, I know that, whilst these buildings are merely structures to hold the church, the significance is beyond bricks and mortar—it's what they represent. It's these buildings that so often hold important family and community memories of celebration, memories of grief, and every emotion in between. It's these buildings that so often have been the gathering place through generations, the support in dark times and good times, and I argue they'll need to be in place for future generations too.

But, sadly, as we know, and mentioned by Mike Hedges already, the future of many buildings of religion and of faith across Wales is not secure. And it's also sadly the case in my own region of North Wales, with many important buildings having an uncertain future. For example, St Mary's cathedral in Wrexham, a grade ll listed building, is currently facing a worrying time with the cathedral hall needing a full refurbishment and the heating system needing to be replaced. Also coming to mind is Llanrhychwyn church in the beautiful Conwy valley, which many people claim is the oldest church in Wales, although I'm sure Mike Hedges may argue with that for a place somewhere in his patch, but that dates back to the sixth century originally. 

I mention this because these buildings aren't just important for our faith here and now, they're important to highlight our history and they are our nation's landmarks as well. The amount of history in these places is spectacular, telling the story of a significant part of our lives and culture here in Wales. It's important that people can continue to use these buildings and understand our culture and history in the future as well. 

So, as point 2 of today's motion states, now is the time for Welsh Government to work with all denominations in Wales to discuss the future of religious buildings, and most importantly ensure they're here to stay for our future generations. I want to thank all Members for submitting this really important debate and I call on the Welsh Government and Members across the political spectrum today to support today's motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

And thank you very much to my friend and colleague Mike Hedges for tabling this debate. Where else in the world would we have a debate like this? Well, perhaps in Chubut state assembly. It's lovely, isn't it? It's quintessentially Welsh to have this kind of debate on the chapels of Wales. Mike Hedges and myself might be Members of different political parties, but we have a great deal in common, and one of those things is that we're both members of the Baptist Union of Wales. I welcome you to cheer that point.

One name given to chapels in the past was 'tŷ cwrdd', which literally means meeting house—that's where the community came together. And without being too sentimental about it, very often, it was the few pennies saved by the people that built our chapels, from Salem Rhydcymerau in the constituency of my friend Mabon ap Gwynfor, which was immortalised by Curnow Vosper and Endaf Emlyn, to Morriston's Tabernacle, the cathedral of Welsh non-conformity, as Mike Hedges often reminds us.

The truth about our nation’s chapels is the wonderful poem by Williams Parry about the hall in Mynytho:

'It is built of poverty;—not stones / but love is its masonry; / shared aspirations are its timber; and shared commitment is what raised it up.'

As a carpenter in the Rhondda—Buffy Williams—in the final decades of the nineteenth century, my great grandfather worked on a number of chapels, including his own chapel, namely Noddfa Treorchy. This chapel held over 1,500 people—more even than Morriston's Tabernacle, Mike—and during a visit in the late 1970s Penri Jones, the author of Jabas and the editor of Lol, said this about Noddfa Treorchy: 'The chapel is as a sporting arena and the pulpit as a stage.' Visiting the vestry, he said that there were better facilities in that vestry than in many modern schools. It was here that the composer John Hughes played the organ. And it was the first meeting place of the world-famous Treorchy male voice choir.

But, for a number of reasons—be they social, political and economic—the congregation at Noddfa, like many other chapels, declined. Penri Jones ends his visit by saying: 'There was once joy here, but there must have been some catastrophic neglect to cause it all to disappear with such finality.' The prophet's words came true, because within a few years, within five years, indeed, Noddfa was burnt to the ground. It all disappeared in such a final way, as Penri Jones foresaw, all of the resources, the community and musical resource, had gone.

Huw T. Edwards, the Labour trade unionist who was described as Wales's unofficial Prime Minister, said,

'I want to see at least seventy-five per cent of the places of worship in Wales pulled down or used in a more effective way.'

Well, I agree, to some extent, with Huw T. Edwards. We need to use these buildings in a much more effective way. But I also agree with the other Huw Edwards, and what debate on chapels could we have without the BBC's Huw? He said this:

Places of worship have made an immeasurable contribution to Welsh life: they taught thousands of children to read and write; they fostered the strongest possible sense of community; they provided an essential platform for Welsh culture; they often campaigned for workers' rights and provided welfare services when government offered next to nothing.

Two years ago, the doors of all places—

Will the Member give way?

Of course.

Thank you, Rhys, and I am enjoying listening to your speech here, but isn't it a fact that Sunday school itself—we're talking about the education of young people through chapels, myself going to Sunday school—is another form of education, which I think is incredibly important? Do you agree that Sunday school is an important part of these chapels as well?

Yes, certainly, I agree, Sam, 100 per cent. 

Two years ago, all of the places of worship closed their doors due to COVID, and for many of them their doors never reopened. I can think of three examples in the Cynon Valley: Siloa Aberdare, the place where a fiery public meeting was held to protest against the betrayal of the blue books, the venue for the first meeting to discuss establishing Y Wladfa, and the location of the organ on which the beautiful hymn 'Rhys' was composed; the Welsh chapel in Hirwaun, where Jennie Eirian and Eirian Davies started their married lives, and where, according to Penri Jones, the Sunday school members could quote the poet Gwenallt and Karl Marx in one sentence; Bethesda Abercwmboi, where the author Kate Roberts established the first Plaid Cymru branch outside Caernarfonshire in 1925, and the chapel provided practical support during the general strike in 1926 and also the miners' strike in the 1980s. All closed during COVID. 

The situation is complex, as Gethin Matthews says in his Barn article, because of the title deeds of chapels and also charity law. And, I'll finish with this, acting Llywydd, where there is a will there is a way. In north Pembrokeshire, we see the latest campaign by Councillor Cris Tomos and others has ensured that Brynmyrnach chapel has been added to the number of local community assets there, such as the Tafarn Sinc—one of my favourite pubs, Mike. The intention is to open a heritage centre there and provide two flats for local people in the old chapel. These places are important, not just to our heritage and not just architecturally, but they're important as locations that belong to the community and to the people themselves. Therefore, it's an honour to support my colleague Mike Hedges' motion. Thank you very much. 

It's five minutes, actually, not six. I call Alun Davies. 

It's a real privilege to join this debate and to follow such strong and powerful contributions to this, a Parliament, which in itself forms a part of a continuum of our history. We talk about our chapels and our churches, but we can also talk about our synagogues, mosques and temples, a part of the tapestry of who we are. And when I think about our religious history, I also, like others here today, think about our social history, our cultural history. The nation that was born in the shadow of Rome and built chapels that exist today, like St Govan's, is as important as perhaps St David's is more recognisable.

And, then, as the nation took on its political identity, Mike Hedges spoke about the competition, if you like, or near warfare in some cases, between chapels and pubs at the beginning of the last century. And when I read about the social history of Tredegar, there was that stirring conflict if you like. The temperance movement was born of our chapels and the trade union movement tried to ride two horses, and I'm not sure how successful it always was at different times. But it is a part of who we are, because we can all talk about these things. But there's no other country in the world that would have built Soar y Mynydd where it was built and stands today—I think one of the most evocative places in our country. But we can all talk about our local chapel and our local places.

Members here will know that I've lost both my parents over the last few years, and reading through some of the papers of my local chapel, Ebenezer, Sirhowy, what you see in the minutes of the chapel is a history, a social history of Sirhowy and a social history of Tredegar, and the place of the Welsh language. The debate: should we have our services in the Welsh or the English languages? They decided, first of all, certainly, that they would preach in English but pray in Welsh. If there isn't a metaphor for Wales and for Tredegar, that probably is it.

But this also stretches back and informs who we are today. When Griffith Jones introduced his circulating schools, he didn't just preach the Bible, but he ended illiteracy; he created a literate nation in the medium of Welsh, and that led to reaching out again and creating a different cultural experience. And Evan Roberts, competing in 1905 with the Welsh Rugby Union for who should be remembered as the winner in 1905. The revival led to an explosion in an identity that was built upon our chapels. And what we did there, of course, was to create a very different Wales, because the Wales that had existed before was the Wales of somewhere like St Martin's in Cwmyoy. I think it's one of the most beautiful churches in the country, and those of you who know it, up in the hills above Abergavenny, will know that you walk through that crooked nave and you look at how the geology and the geography of that place have created a church in use today, but somewhere that is uniquely Welsh and also a unique and beautiful place, and a very evocative place. But we read through our churches and our chapels and our religious buildings our history of our country.

I agree with the points made by Mike Hedges in introducing this debate, and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to those. She will know that the heritage centre that is being built in Merthyr, from the synagogue, speaks about the history of the Jewish community in the south Wales Valleys. And I think we still have to come to terms with parts of our history, and certainly the anti-Jewish riots in Tredegar at the beginning of the last century are something that we haven't come to terms with yet today. I think, in the way that we protect the bricks and mortar, what we have to do is to translate that into the present as well and into who we are as a people and who we want to be as a nation.

I would also seek to ask the Minister how she believes that the Historic Environment (Wales) Act that was passed by this place, I think, back in 2016 can be used to provide protection for these places, because until we have protected these places, we literally will not have the bricks upon which we can build this future. So, we have, in this debate this afternoon, stretched our minds back to the shadow of the Roman empire, where we built our nation, and where that nation was forged, both in the industrial revolution and all the other parts of our history that we are familiar with, but also in the chapels and the churches. What happened there was not that a Government created a people, but that a people created a culture.

I'd like to thank my fellow Members for bringing this item to debate. As many here already know, I'm disheartened to see so many historical buildings across Wales being abandoned and then, consequently, torn down and demolished to be replaced by newer, nondescript buildings that do not contribute to the identity of an area. Removing buildings such as former churches and chapels ultimately changes our urban landscape, and, in my mind, is having a negative effect on the way we relate and identify ourselves with the place we live. Moreover, we are losing our tangible connection to our own history. Whilst museums do provide appropriate examples, as we develop our urban areas, we risk eroding the identity of our communities.

Personally, and as has already been said, religious buildings are very much a part of our community, and they have provided a place of security and hope for generations of people through some of the most troubling times of our nation's history. As we remove our places of worship, we are unintentionally signalling that our loss of religiosity is a good thing, which in my mind is a sad state of affairs, because it normalises the view that our spirituality and connection to a higher power are no longer relevant.

In my home village of Llantwit Fardre, the Bethesda Calvinistic Methodist chapel and the green corrugated iron St Andrew's church are now but distant memories. I'll never forget Trinity Calvinistic Methodist chapel and the impact that it had on me when I drove around the corner one day to see the building that had been in my community since 1913 was, without warning to the rest of us in the village, just a pile of bricks on the ground. All of these buildings contributed to the history of my village and shaped it in one way or another, and now I fear that the next generation and people moving into the area will see my home village as just one massive housing estate without a history or distinct identity of its own.

I believe that, whilst communities may have moved away from worshipping in these buildings, and so their original use has faded, we should not be so ready to allow their destruction, because there's no doubt in my mind that communities still want and would welcome them being saved and repurposed, still serving the community in the spirit in which they were built. I would also argue that organisations that own these religious buildings would welcome their reuse rather than their demolition and would be willing to offer their help and services to do so in one way or another. With this in mind, I want to emphasise that as a nation that recognises the importance of the well-being of our communities, we need to do more to help them repurpose these religious and other historic buildings. Recently, I met with a housing association concerning their plans to demolish an old school in my region, and one of the reasons why they're doing this instead of renovating it is because of the building's poor energy efficiency and the lack of financial support to do anything to improve it. Given this and the unprecedented need to build an energy-efficient future, we need to provide a more suitable level of public resource for communities, agencies and religious groups to upgrade the energy efficiency of these buildings and to help them meet decarbonisation targets. 

Finally, as has already been mentioned, I think that given the value of religious buildings to the community and their potential value to tourism, such as pilgrimage routes and historic trails, we should be providing clear evidence and support that communities can repurpose or rejuvenate their religious buildings and enable them to continue to serve their communities before any more are lost. Thank you, acting Llywydd, and I would urge my fellow Members to support this motion. Thank you.

I wasn't going to speak in this debate originally, but Mike got in touch and inspired me to think about how important religious buildings have been to my family, so I did want to say a word or two.

I remember a priest writing a little snippet in a parish newsletter, and it said, 'The church is not a museum for saints, but a hospital for sinners.' That's always stuck with me—that these religious buildings we have in Wales were constructed not just to the glory of their God, but as a balm for the congregation, a place of solace, worship and peace. These buildings are to be found on nearly every street in Valleys towns, as in the old joke that each village in Wales will have the chapel you go to as well as all the chapels you don't go to, though more and more these days, they're the chapels very few attend.

These buildings—the point has been made—are more than masonry; they're cathedrals of our collective memory, our connection to our past. There's a church in Partrishow with a fifteenth-century rood screen. In the churchyard a cross marks the place where Gerallt Gymro preached the third crusade. When you stand there, you can imagine that you hear the words. The synagogue in Merthyr shows the tell-tale fairytale architectural tenets of nearby Cyfarthfa castle and Castell Coch, a building that reflects our more recent history and the face it gives to the world. If buildings like this were lost, how much of our history would be buried with them? Only the foundations remain of Abaty Ystrad Fflur, where legend has it Dafydd ap Gwilym was laid to rest. Of Abaty Cwm Hir, nothing remains almost at all. Too many grand, illustrious spaces call to mind the Harri Webb line that 'nettles grow on the altar where the saints fasted and the pilgrims prayed.' 

These buildings are not only important to our past. They play a central role in community life as hubs for coffee mornings, bazaars, collection points, foodbanks. Throughout COVID-19, chapels, churches, synagogues, mosques, gurdwaras and temples have been used for outreach, connecting members of the community, organising food runs, Zoom choirs, buddy schemes. They offer a lifeline for residents of all faiths and none. I'd love to see more religious buildings getting support, getting guaranteed funding so that they can keep their doors open and heating on. I know the Catholic Bishops' Conference of England and Wales has written to Members ahead of today's debate to point out that funding, be it from the National Lottery or the cultural recovery fund, will vary year on year, and less funding is available in Wales as compared with England.

Lots of dioceses and lots of congregations do rely on donations from the people who go and are associated with their congregations, and this will be true of all faiths. But, because of the pandemic, fewer people attend services or mass or prayer. They aren't there to put the money in the basket. What more certainty can the Government, I wonder, give to religious communities in Wales that their buildings can be not just protected, but strengthened and supported? Because I'd repeat again that they are not just monuments to the divine, but a living testament to the goodwill of residents in our communities—those of all religions, those without any religion, those who come together to support people who need it, to provide solace to strangers and, to those needing it, peace.

Diolch, Mike, for bringing this debate forward. They say that nothing in life is certain but death and taxes. Well, I can tell the Chamber today that nothing is certain but death, taxes and churches and chapels in Rhondda. You can't drive from Cymmer up to Treherbert or from Trehafod up to Maerdy without passing a church or a chapel. I've had many a conversation with Rhys ab Owen about the cymanfas held in Rhondda and the old Noddfa Baptist church in Treorchy, and that's because, during the industrial revolution, churches and chapels were pillars of working class communities and were a fundamental part of our forefathers' lives. Some remain staples of our communities today, but we've seen a significant decline in active churches and chapels, with very many either sold or left derelict.

Growing up, I used to attend Llanfair church before it made way for housing. Whether you're religious or not, attending these religious buildings gives you a sense of family and belonging. They stand as community hubs, and I'm sure Members in the Chamber will agree with me that our community groups and charities play a vital role for those who most need support in our communities. From mental health and well-being support, through social prescribing, and providing free meals for families and our older generations, to volunteering and work opportunities on the doorstep for our young people, community groups and charities provide such essential services, but the future of many, unfortunately, hangs in the balance due to the uncertainty of rent arrangements. We need to take away that barrier and help these community groups and charities obtain permanent homes. I don't see why religious buildings can't provide this home for them.

There are two examples in Rhondda of churches that have now become more than religious buildings. In Penrhys, Sharon works hard with an army of volunteers to meet the needs of the families living in her community. Residents on the estate will tell you that, without the church and without Sharon, life would be far more difficult for them. We also have Ynys y Werin St Anne's Community, who are working tirelessly to raise money to buy St Anne's church for the community. St Anne's church is a beautiful building and the building is very, very lucky to have such a passionate group fighting for it. I can see just from the empty churches and chapels in Rhondda, and the two examples I have just mentioned in Penrhys and Ynyshir, the positive difference Mike's proposals could make in communities right across Wales. I will be supporting today's motion.

And finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you very much, acting Llywydd, and thank you very much to Mike Hedges for bringing forward this debate. I've very much enjoyed it, so far, anyway, and I want to limit my contribution. But it's a very timely debate, especially as we consider, some of you who will remember last summer, the discussion in Dwyfor Meirionydd about Capel Tom Nefyn in Pistyll, with the community there trying to save that chapel for community benefit, but, ultimately, the chapel was bought and is going to be developed as a holiday home. So, we have to look at community needs with regard to these resources.

It's a debate that's important to me too on several fronts. First of all, I'm a son of a minister, and have attended several different chapels over the course of my life. I'm also a lay preacher, or I was before being elected, and it's sad to say that the last three chapels at which I gave a sermon have closed. I don't know if that's a reflection on me or the lack of congregation there. Those chapels are now empty, although one has been turned into offices.

I also have a family interest in this issue. My uncle, Dewi-Prys Thomas, was a renowned architect and he championed the chapels of Wales. Scholars from outside Wales have constantly argued that there is no such thing as Welsh vernacular architecture, but Dewi-Prys Thomas disagreed. He argued that the small chapels of Wales were a clear and perfect example of Welsh folk architecture, with the chapel being the heart of the community, drawing people together. So, there is architectural value for these buildings.

I am the son of a minister, like you. Would you agree with me that one of the best ways of moving things forward would be to have multidenominational meetings to bring local communities together?

I agree. Peredur has made an important point there. There are chapels empty, so why shouldn't the denominations come together to make use of a chapel that's only used part time at the moment? That's an important point from Peredur.

But we mustn't forget too that these buildings weren’t constructed solely for religious purposes, but deliberately as community assets, as has been mentioned by Rhys. Indeed, if you read the articles of establishment for a few of these chapels, they mention religious purposes, but also political and social purposes specifically, with large political meetings, very often, held in these chapels, with assemblies and concerts too. They were buildings that were focal points for the community, and they were multipurpose buildings, so it’s right that we discuss how to take on these buildings and repurpose them for alternative uses today.

Thank you very much to Mike for the debate, and I very much hope that the motion will be accepted unopposed. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip, Dawn Bowden.

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. Can I thank Members of the Senedd for bringing forward this really important debate on the issue of closure of religious buildings throughout Wales, and for the passion with which all of you have spoken on the issue—an issue that I think is of concern to all of us? Because we all have these buildings, don’t we, in our constituencies. Alun Davies referred to the synagogue in Merthyr Tydfil, which is going to be repurposed to become the Welsh Jewish heritage centre for the whole of Wales. I think about Capel Aberfan, which is now standing empty, and the importance to that community in the immediate aftermath of the disaster in Aberfan.

Places of worship are absolutely embedded in the heritage of every community in Wales, and to hear Rhys ab Owen, Joel James, Delyth Jewell, Buffy Williams and Mabon ap Gwynfor all talking so passionately and inspirationally about examples from their own lives and their own constituencies was wonderful to hear, because collectively they contain more history than perhaps any other type of building that we see every day. There are no less than 3,000 places of worship listed in Wales, a powerful acknowledgement of both their architectural and historic significance. Many have not met the criteria for statutory listing at a national level, but they are of course still very important at a local level.

The community connections that have sustained all of those buildings over centuries are sadly wearing very thin in many areas. I absolutely agree that it is vital for Welsh Government to work with different denominations to discuss the future of these buildings. I'm pleased to report that my officials in Cadw are doing just that. It's also vital that we are imaginative and work with a range of other partners to find a sustainable future for these precious buildings that restores them to their place at the heart of our communities.

And I'd like to start by perhaps giving a few good examples of where this approach has been successful and then briefly explain how Welsh Government is currently working with partners at a strategic level to address some of these shared concerns. So, there are, for example, conversion schemes that respond to the social value of religious buildings, with new uses that deliver community benefit. And Welsh Government has invested heavily in some of these, including the library in Hanbury chapel in Bargoed. The Transforming Towns programme supports projects that develop underused or empty properties, including several former places of worship. And I particularly commend the commitment of Circus Eruption, a youth charity, which has taken on the former St Luke's church in Cwmbwrla in Swansea. They work mostly with young people, including refugees, asylum seekers, young carers and the disabled, and they want this historic building to be a place for everyone. As a charity with no previous experience of heritage, they also want to inspire other charities to see that heritage buildings create opportunity. 

The Faith in Affordable Housing programme of Housing Justice Cymru is working in partnership with a number of Welsh housing associations to release surplus land or buildings for affordable housing. The organisation is currently working with the Architectural Heritage Fund on a pilot project focused on the conversion of historic redundant chapels.

Places of worship are also being encouraged to investigate ways in which they can open their doors for community use, alongside their original purpose. An important exemplar, which I'm sure Mike Hedges is aware of, is the Morriston Tabernacle, where ancillary spaces will be adapted for community use, leaving the glorious chapel interior intact and in use. Now, while opening the doors to meet local community needs is important, it won't necessarily provide sufficient income to help keep the roof on. However, places of worship can reach out to a much wider community to help sustain those buildings. For instance, there's a growing interest in faith tourism, and we're beginning to see some imaginative new ideas to realise its potential, including bookable experiences and themed trails promoted by Visit Wales and the National Churches Trust. 

In exceptional cases, redundant religious buildings may be maintained largely unaltered by trusts specifically set up for that purpose. And there are two trusts that operate nationally in Wales. There is Friends of Friendless Churches, which rescues and repairs redundant Church in Wales churches and keeps their doors open, and it currently has some 28 churches, mostly in rural areas. Then there's Addoldai Cymru, which was established to care for a small number of the best nonconformist chapels across Wales, and it currently looks after 10 chapels. Both organisations receive annual grant support from Welsh Government to continue their work. 

So, adaptation for new uses that respond to the full significance of religious buildings, the introduction of additional uses that help to sustain a building, reaching out to a variety of new communities and new interests or vesting in trust are just some of the ways in which our religious buildings may be given a future. But all of them depend on people—to care for the buildings, to open the doors, to welcome visitors, to deliver a community service. They show the overarching importance of sparking new connections between buildings and their communities, recognising that these buildings belong to us all. So, I'm encouraged that there is much already going on to try to tackle this issue, and I would like this activity to be more widely shared and celebrated. 

Now, Members may be aware that, in 2015, the Welsh Government, through Cadw, published a strategic action plan for places of worship in Wales. The focus of the plan was on people and communities using, enjoying and looking after historic places of worship, and foremost of its actions was setting up a places of worship forum to share information and best practice and review ongoing needs. The forum attracted representation from across the sector and for several years used its meetings as an opportunity to learn from a range of projects across Wales. These physical meetings were, of course, halted by the pandemic, but the forum took the opportunity to reflect on its direction and is now in the process of establishing itself on a new footing. Supported by a grant from Welsh Government, again through Cadw, the National Churches Trust is organising a series of forum events to undertake a formal review of its work and of the strategic plan. And in addition, they are using online webinar meetings to reach their grass roots. Three such meetings have already been held, bringing together speakers to offer professional advice, with passionate voices from communities across Wales talking about their own experiences. The two most recent events focused on community engagement and fundraising. Later this month, the next event will consider the environment and responses to climate change.

But I am very taken with Mike Hedges's suggestion that we could explore the possibility of such an empty church building, or chapel building, being used as a national museum for religion. I think that this is something that this forum could look at as an opportunity to see what possibilities might open up for some of these empty buildings.

Now, I'm under no illusion about the scale of the challenge. But when I survey the initiatives that are already under way, and I see the energy and the commitment that's dedicated to meeting this challenge, I believe that many of the elements that will help us re-establish the vital link between buildings and community are already in place. It is that link that will give our historic places of worship faith in their future.

So, I am happy to support the motion and agree that we need to work with the various denominations to secure a future for these buildings. Of course, we will need to work with other partners, but I hope that I have explained that we are seeking to do just that.

I now call on Jane Dodds to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Where else would you hear from the sons of two ministers, in Sam Rowlands and Mabon ap Gwynfor, the mention, specifically, of 48 chapels and churches and other religious buildings, and two brilliant sayings, one from Alun Davies—I loved that—that he heard about people preaching in English and praying in Welsh, and also, from Delyth Jewell, that churches and chapels are not museums for saints, but hospitals for sinners?

We've had a fantastic debate this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi i gyd—thank you very much to you all. We heard from Sam Rowlands how important faith is to us in our communities, and that religious buildings are at the heart of our communities. They're not just historic landmarks, but we need to use them, because they are here to stay.

We heard from Rhys as well around the range of uses for our chapels. They are places of historical and political debate, they are places where we have cymanfa ganus, where our brilliant hymn-writers started—we heard many of those names come forward—choirs, where education is—and Samuel Kurz also highlighted the importance of Sunday schools—we've got welfare services running out of them, debating halls, places where politicians started.

Then we heard from Alun Davies how they are part of our social and cultural tapestry, and how important that is, really. But they're not just part of our social and cultural tapestry. They are part of our future as well.

We heard from Joel James how important chapels and churches are, and that possibly the disappearance of them might erode our identity. They must bring security and hope to us all. They must be saved and repurposed, and they actually need help also to decarbonise and to become greener.

Delyth Jewell, thank you very much—diolch yn fawr iawn. It's important to hear how those chapels are important to you, and that we need certainty for these buildings. They need to be protected. They are living testimony and places where we can find our peace.

From Mabon we heard how important it is for chapels to be held as chapels, and the example that he gave in his own community of one being converted into a holiday home. We heard as well about his previous role as a preacher, and we really—. I would have loved to have heard you preach, Mabon. But the chapel is the centre of our community. They are community assets. That's what you said, Mabon, and how important that is.

And we heard from Buffy Williams as well about the chapels in her community in the Rhondda, which were actually bringing hope, bringing things alive in her community, and how that was giving, actually, the people in her community something different and positive.

Thank you, Minister, for your response, and to hear about the plans that are ongoing, the strategic action plan we know about, looking at the places of worship forum—and we do look forward to hearing more about that after its pause after COVID—and the National Churches Trust as well and what they're doing. But we must move on, as you've said, and you're under no illusion, but working together we surely have to see a way of finding our feet in terms of supporting chapels and churches and other religious buildings, because, as we've heard, they are actually now at the heart of our community and they're providing hope. They're providing different experiences to those communities, places where older people go, the lonely go, people who need help and support, but also places where we can sing and enjoy ourselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Great to hear as well, Minister, that you're willing to consider Mike Hedges's suggestion around how we have a museum of churches, how we can have a walking trail, a travel trail, of churches and chapels across Wales. And I do hope that we'll be able to move forward on those suggestions. I would like to thank Mike Hedges for introducing this debate today. It's made us really come alive in the Senedd, and, although I'm not there, I can really feel the warmth and the love that many of you have, and I'm sure that's shared across the Siambr, for many of these religious buildings and churches and chapels. We've all been in them. We've all had times of sadness. We've all had times of happiness as well. Let us make sure that we keep those at the heart of our community. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.