Item 10 is next, the legislative consent memorandum on the British Sign Language Bill, and I call the Minister for Social Justice to move the motion. Jane Hutt.

Motion NDM7981 Jane Hutt

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the British Sign Language Bill, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion and I'm happy to propose this motion and explain why I believe the Senedd should agree it. For many people in Wales, British Sign Language is the language they use in everyday life, but we know that for many they have been disabled because public services do not or fail to communicate with them through British Sign Language. For the deaf community, language is just one distinguishing feature of their culture. A more equal Wales is one that enables people to fulfil their potential, no matter what their background or circumstances. It's also one of our collective national well-being goals in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and this is underpinned by a long-standing commitment to the social model of disability.

For users of BSL, the ability to get on with their lives unimpeded by communication barriers is fundamental, and, when Welsh Government adopted BSL as an official language in 2004, it was in recognition of this truth, and I'm proud of the progress we've collectively made in Wales in promoting the use of BSL in how we communicate, and I fully recognise there is much more to do.

This Bill, whilst limited to the promotion and facilitation of BSL in the communication of UK Government bodies to the public will, when implemented, make an important contribution to the lives of BSL users and our objectives for a more equal Wales. As such, it will improve equality of opportunity for people in Wales, and this is why it does require the consent of the Senedd and why I'm supporting that consent being offered.

The Bill has three operative provisions. It makes BSL an official language in England, Scotland and Wales, and this status takes effect through the other provisions in the Bill, which require UK Ministers to report on the promotion and facilitation of the use of BSL in the communications with the public of UK Government departments, and the Secretary of State to publish related guidance.

The Bill does not prevent the Senedd from legislating in this area should it choose to do so. There are carve-outs in the Bill for the devolved public authorities and for Welsh Ministers, and it's right that we can decide on a comprehensive Welsh approach to suit our own approach. The Welsh Government is currently working with our disability taskforce to develop an approach, following the British Deaf Association audit we commissioned in February 2021, and I will say we commissioned that in response to the private Member's Bill that was put forward by Mark Isherwood at that time. We then said that we wanted to take this forward in this way, doing this British Deaf Association audit, and now we have the disability rights taskforce to help move this forward.

So, the provisions in this Bill that we're debating this afternoon in terms of the LCM will make a positive contribution to the lives of BSL users, which we should welcome alongside our Welsh approach. I'd like to thank both the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee for their scrutiny of the Bill and legislative consent memorandum. Obviously, I accept there's much more to do, but this is a positive contribution, and I urge the Senedd to agree to its application to Wales. Diolch.

I call on the Chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, Jenny Rathbone. 

Thank you very much. This proposal was discussed at the Equality and Social Justice Committee yesterday, and I don't think there was any dissent on the importance of passing this measure, although I think there's some dissent on the way in which we do it. I can't believe that anybody would oppose it, but I think it's important to understand who is it who needs to use British Sign Language, because there's no point in us simply passing legislation just for the sake of it; we have to reflect on how it should change our behaviour.

So, there are over 0.5 million deaf and hard of hearing people living in Wales, but obviously most of them are able to overcome that deafness through the use of hearing aids. But there are about 4,000 people who we know about who use British Sign Language because their deafness is so profound that they do not have the ability to acquire spoken languages like English, Welsh or any other language. So, British Sign Language is incredibly important for them and it's also very important for people who have other communication difficulties and British Sign Language is a very useful tool for them.

There has been a reduction in the number of deaf children who are in school, but I have seen elsewhere sign language being taught, for example in nursery or primary provision, to all children, so that the inclusive school can ensure that all the children are able to communicate with each other, including a child who needs to use sign language.

I think there's also an issue for the Senedd Commission: if we're serious about British Sign Language, how often should we be making that available in our proceedings so that people who need to use sign language are able to follow what we're doing on their behalf? So, I hope that we will all unanimously want to pass this measure in conjunction with the UK Parliament, but I think that we need to reflect on how we can reach out to this quite vulnerable and isolated community, one of whom I happened to meet quite coincidentally yesterday and I felt embarrassed that I didn't really have as much sign language as I would have liked. So, I hope we will all support this measure. 

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee next. Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. We considered the memorandum at our meeting of 28 March and we reported on the memorandum yesterday. We don't turn to the issues of a policy; that's been ably done by my fellow Chair Jenny Rathbone and her committee, but I agree with the observations there: who would object to this? 

We don't make any recommendations in our report, but we make a few observations. One of these touches on a comment that you've just made, Jenny. First of all, we note and agree with the Welsh Government's assessment of the provisions in the Bill that require the Senedd's consent, and secondly we note the Minister's view that it is appropriate for the Bill to make provision for Wales and that it offers no direct interference with devolved functions.

But, finally, our third observation: we do take the opportunity to highlight what we think is an important issue related to the way in which backbenchers in the Senedd are able to bring forward Member Bills. While a Member's legislative proposal on this important subject has been noted by Members of the Senedd, an opportunity for a Member to introduce legislation in this area has not arisen and we're saddened by that because it's actually a missed opportunity to make legislation in Wales for Wales. Now, there are others who would champion the role of the backbencher who might argue that the willingness of the Senedd and indeed the Government to support backbencher-initiated legislation is the sign of a confident and maturing legislature and democracy as well. This might be of interest to Members here, and it's why we're going to signal that to the Business Committee as well, and it'll certainly be of interest to those people who have championed this, not least our colleague Mark Isherwood, but others as well who have sought the opportunity to bring forward a backbench Bill within this. But who would object to this? But I just make those observations. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

As we've heard, in February last year, my motion proposing that the Senedd notes a proposal for a Bill that would

'make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language (BSL) in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL' was passed here with cross-party support, no Member voting against, and Welsh Government Ministers routinely abstaining. As I then stated, 

'there is clearly an appetite for such BSL legislation across the Senedd chamber. We will continue to pursue this on behalf of the D/deaf community'.

Although I've continued to submit bids for a private Member's Bill in this Senedd accordingly, I've not yet been successful.

My motion noted that my proposed Bill would ensure that the deaf community and people with hearing loss have a voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure they meet the needs of service users. Scores of deaf people and deaf-led groups across Wales contacted me in support of this, telling me that, although the Welsh Government was developing a new BSL charter for Wales, my planned Bill was an enormous step forward. Only one person wrote in opposition.

I was, therefore, delighted to hear Labour MP Rosie Cooper being interviewed on the radio last year about her British Sign Language Bill in the UK Parliament, co-sponsored by Conservative Lord Holmes of Richmond. Following its First Reading on 16 June 2021, the British Sign Language Bill to give BSL full legal status and deaf people access to essential services and information in their first language was given an unopposed Second Reading in the House of Commons on 28 January, after securing the UK Government's support, and was passed after its Third Reading on 18 March.

Well, according to the 2020 'Independent Review of BSL Provision for Adults in Wales', around 7,500 people use BSL in Wales, including around 4,000 who are D/deaf. And 151,000, including over 87,000 deaf people for whom BSL is their preferred language, use the language across the UK. Although the UK Bill creates a duty for the UK Government to prepare and publish BSL reports describing what Government departments have done to promote the use of BSL in their communications with the public, the UK Bill specifically excludes reporting on matters devolved to Scotland and Wales, with clauses 2 and 3 of the explanatory notes stating that,

'The devolution settlements for both Scotland and Wales provide that the "promotion of equal opportunities" is a reserved matter. However, there are significant exceptions to this, which in practice mean that the encouragement of equal opportunities is a devolved matter.'

The Bill does not extend the reporting or guidance duty to the devolved administrations, i.e. Governments, of Scotland and Wales.

The Welsh Government laid this legislative consent motion on 8 March, under Standing Order 29.2, which states:

'it is appropriate to deal with these provisions in this UK Bill as the Bill’s promotion of equality of opportunity is commensurate with our own position and offers no direct interference with devolved functions. I therefore recommend the Senedd gives its consent to these provision being included in the Bill.'

It goes on to say,

'The Bill does not affect the operation of any enactment or rule of law and it does not place any obligations on the Welsh Government or other devolved Welsh Authorities....The Bill gives legal effect to British Sign Language as a language in Wales through imposing duties and obligations on reserved'—

i.e. non-devolved—

'authorities and there would be nothing to prevent the Senedd from legislating in a similar way to impose similar duties and obligations on devolved Welsh Authorities.'

In response to my written question on what plans the Minister has to introduce a BSL Bill in Wales, the Minister said on 11 March:

'Welsh Government already recognises British Sign Language (BSL) as a language of Wales as of 2004. The BSL Bill contains provisions to recognise BSL as a language in England, Wales and Scotland.'

Adding that,

'The British Deaf Association (BDA) were commissioned to undertake an audit of Welsh Government’s BSL policies and service provision with a view to signing up to their BSL Charter. The audit resulted in a Report providing high level recommendations. The BDA and officials are discussing the findings and will finalise the Report.'

And, key to this:

'Consideration of the need for specific Welsh legislation will form part of these discussions.'

Therefore, the Welsh Government could bring forward primary legislation, possibly similar to the Scottish British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015 or the Act currently being considered in Northern Ireland.

I contacted the chair of the BDA and asked them about that statement, and he's told me today—. I'll finish by quoting him:

'We worked hard engaging with the Welsh Government Departments and Welsh Deaf Community members. Welsh Government made some comments on the final draft BSL Audit report and so, we will correct and re-submit the final BSL Audit report shortly. I understand that the report will go to the Disability Rights Workforce for considerations and recommendations. BDA Wales submitted a new proposal for the next step on the BSL Charter in Wales and we hope that they will favour the proposal. Again, we strongly believe that the Welsh Deaf Community wants a BSL (Welsh) Act, so it would be marvellous if they could find out from the Northern Ireland Department for Communities what progress they're making on the BSL and ISL—Irish Sign Language—legislation there.

'BDA Wales would really like to continue working with Mark, other MSs and Welsh Government officials to consider the possibility of introducing a cross-party BSL (Welsh) Bill'.

Will the Minister therefore state whether the Welsh Government will support a BSL (Wales) Bill during this Senedd term when, as I now know they will, the BDA will recommend to you that you do so?

The Minister for Social Justice now to reply to the debate. Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. This is a small but important piece of legislation, and it's been really helpful to have this debate in moving this LCM—an opportunity to discuss the importance of BSL. Thank you to Jenny Rathbone on behalf of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, and also to Huw Irranca-Davies from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—we note your comments as well. But I think it is important that we reference and recognise the very informed contribution from Mark Isherwood, just following on from the work that you've done and the promotion of your Bill back in 2021.

Just to say, in terms of the importance of this British Deaf Association audit, clearly you've had a word with them about the audit as well, which is absolutely right—it's the lived experience, it's the opportunity to engage with our partners in co-production, and we know we share that vision of the way forward. So, we are reviewing how we improve the use of BSL in how the Welsh Government communicates with the public. It's so important that we had that in terms of our press conferences on the pandemic, throughout. It's been so important to have that visible opportunity to communicate, but the education opportunities as well, and in the delivery of all public services. But we really will be taking forward the BDA's audit in the work through the disability rights taskforce.

I think, as we've said—and, Mark, just to acknowledge—in their report they are recommending that the Welsh Government considers bringing forward legislation on BSL, and so the response to this recommendation will now be progressed with the disability rights taskforce, so as to provide us with the opportunity to ensure appropriate scope to any Welsh legislation, and that consideration, of course, for legislation in Wales forms part of the developing response to the BSL audit. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see that there is objection, therefore I will defer voting under this item until voting time.  

Voting deferred until voting time.