The only sustainable way to improve the justice system is to reduce the number of people coming into contact with it. That's what you said, Mick Antoniw, and I completely agree with that, and we need to start with children, because we've still got nearly 18,000 children every year experiencing the trauma of their mother being sent to prison, which is 'nothing short of catastrophic'—the words of Baroness Corston, who 15 years ago wrote the seminal report that everybody agreed at the time was the way forward for women in the criminal justice system, and here we are, still talking about it. But thanks very much to Jane Hutt and others, who are actually endeavouring to make progress on this, so we do actually have a pilot women's centre in Swansea, and if it works, then we'll have one in north Wales and west Wales as well. But we certainly can't go on the way we are at the moment, because the system is completely broken. It's a national disgrace, the levels of recidivism, and should we be surprised? Rehabilitation is impossible if prisoners are locked up 23 hours a day and if every time there is a Minister who expresses a glimmer of attempt at reform, they get moved on. That's also my experience of the prison service when I tried to work with them in a former life.

So, we really do have to get on with this and it is disappointing to hear in the discourse you've already had with other Members that it's going to be 2024 before we're going to see any change, because the evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of women have suffered trauma and need support and rehabilitation to put their lives back together again, and not have the disruption of their children being separated from them and losing their homes. And we need to learn from other Scandinavian countries where people go to prison and their families go with them: the families go about their normal lives, go to school, go to work, and they themselves have to work during the week, and then they are in prison at the weekend. That is their punishment, and that seems to me a much more effective way of ensuring people are punished when they do something wrong, but are not so disrupted that they never manage to put their lives back together.

So, the 2021 concordat said that there was going to be a great deal of work done on ensuring that the women's estate and everybody who came into contact with women would be trauma informed. And I just wondered: the deadline was set for January 2022 at that time; could you tell us what progress has been made on that?