6. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: Justice in Wales

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:48 pm on 24 May 2022.

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Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 4:48, 24 May 2022

Can I thank the Member for the very substantial number of questions and points he's raised? Can I just perhaps start by saying I do hope, of course, that when he's had an opportunity to consider what is a very, very detailed report, there will be an opening of, I believe, a less knee-jerk discussion of some of the broader issues around justice within Wales.

But can I thank the Member in particular for quite a number of his comments? As you were getting towards the end of your contribution and questions, it actually seemed clear to me that you were actually making the case for the devolution of justice. I think when we talk about some of the points that lie behind that, and some of the issues that, of course, have impacted so much on justice, and why all the issues around the delivery of justice in the broader sense are of such importance to us in terms of reform and change, let's just summarise where much of the justice system is.

We've had substantial cuts in police numbers, and the police numbers and funding are still low in real terms, and below what they were in 2010. There's been the closure of 600 courts around the UK, and a large number of courts within Wales, which has almost brought an end to the concept of local justice. There have been enormous cuts in legal aid—and even now we do not have a full commitment to the implementation of even the limited recommendations of Lord Bellamy—which limit access to justice.

We've had cuts in the investment in courts. You talked a little bit about the international legal economy—can I just say that the discussions that myself and others have had with the UK Government over the state of the civil justice centre in Cardiff have absolutely got nowhere? The state of that court, in a capital city, in an environment where we want to see the legal economy in Wales grow, is an absolute disgrace, and the total failure of the Ministry of Justice to give any attention whatsoever to justice in the capital city, in the civil justice centre, and the investment that is needed, would not happen in a devolved justice system, because we would not be allowed to get away with it. There's the creation of advice deserts, the increasing prison population, the increasing levels of violent crime and knife crime, the increasing pressure on the justice system. I have to say to the Member that his response, to some extent, is really a head-in-the-sand response—one that does not address all the issues that are raised within the paper.

We see the issue of the devolution of justice or the need for reform and change in justice as not being about who controls what, but how can we deliver it better. When you set it against that background of total failure within the justice system—a crumbling justice system—then we have to look to reform. One thing is very clear, if we just take the examples of youth justice and probation, the need for their integration with all those devolved policy responsibilities that we have is just logical. It makes absolute sense.

I very much welcome the co-operation that is taking place with the Ministry of Justice—inconsistent co-operation. We never know from one year to the next where we might go. But it's thanks to my colleague Jane Hutt that we actually have the women's residential centre in Cardiff coming to fruition. This has not happened as a result of some willingness of the Ministry of Justice; it's thanks to Jane Hutt, and in fact to other former Welsh Government Ministers. So, yes, we work with the UK Government on these issues, and we co-operate, but the issue that comes out of this paper, as I'm sure you'll agree once you've had the chance to absorb it all, is that we could do so much better, and we need radical reform.