Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:41 pm on 7 June 2022.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:41, 7 June 2022

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and could I join you in congratulating the Welsh football team and the great prominence that will give Wales as a country on the international football stage, and wish the team well when the championships arrive? Obviously, hopefully, with planning, you can make sure there are no clashes with Plenary business, especially at the end of November in particular.

First Minister, two weekends ago, we saw traffic chaos and travel chaos here in south Wales with the Ed Sheeran event, and My Chemical Romance, which is a group, I'm told, rather than a night out in Cardiff on my part. Whilst we welcome all this activity here in south Wales, because Cardiff has truly become a destination city, the traffic and travel chaos that we saw over that weekend really cannot be allowed to continue when major events happen in this part of Wales. Because it does happen at sporting events, and now we've seen it graphically amplified over the three days of the Ed Sheeran concerts. What analysis has the Welsh Government taken about what actions need to be taken to address these traffic bottlenecks so that we do not see this occur again?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:42, 7 June 2022

I thank the Member for that question, and it's undoubtedly the case that the confluence of two major events in Cardiff and the start of the half-term holiday resulted in very high volumes of traffic all trying to arrive in Cardiff in a limited period of time. Whenever there is a major event in the city, there is a team of people who meet afterwards to review the experience and to see what more could be done to either mitigate the impact of those high volumes of traffic, or to provide additional services. Transport for Wales are currently in the process of loaning two trains from Northern Trains, in addition to the new CAF trains that are planned to enter service this summer, in order to allow them to provide that additional capacity when we have busy events and a confluence of different factors that lead to the sort of delays that we saw over that weekend.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:44, 7 June 2022

First Minister, I'm glad you introduced Transport for Wales, because one of the main criticisms was the ability to get onto trains and the supplying of information for people queuing at Cardiff Central station. That is a pretty basic function of any transport operation and doesn't cost a huge sum of money. The flow of information is critical for passengers understanding why they're stuck in those bottlenecks. Do you accept that, on this occasion, Transport for Wales did fall short? We knew it was, obviously, the start of the spring bank holiday, we knew that two major events were taking place, and yet greater emphasis should have been provided on capacity, but also the supply of information for people attending the city, who had a very bad experience to say the least, and these experiences were amplified on the broadcast media right over the bank holiday weekend.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, I make a distinction between the two points that the leader of the opposition has made. I think, on capacity, it is genuinely difficult to expect a train company, with fixed assets and a fixed pool of staff able to provide those services, to turn the tap on in a major way around any sort of event, and that's particularly true of train services. You simply can't magic trains out of the air for a couple of days; you've got to be able to afford them all year round, and you have to have staff that are competent and capable of providing a safe service. So, I think that is a genuine challenge and I don't think Transport for Wales can be criticised for the efforts they made to mobilise the resources at their disposal.

Where I do agree with the leader of the opposition is in relation to information. Anybody who has been stuck in any form of traffic event, whether that's at an airport or at a train station, knows that the one thing you need is good information about what is happening. And, even when that information is difficult and is going to tell you that you are going to be delayed or stuck or whatever, you would rather know what you are facing, rather than feel that there's nobody able to tell you what it is that is going on around you. So, that is an important point for Transport for Wales to take away from that event. While I don't expect them to be able to find capacity out of thin air, I do expect, when there are events of the sort that we saw, that every effort is made to make sure that people who are attempting to travel are kept as well informed as they can be.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:46, 7 June 2022

I accept the point on capacity, First Minister, but it was a case that the trains that were planned to run, in many instances, didn't turn up at Cardiff Central station. So, I accept that you can't magic trains out of thin air, but the trains that were supposed to run didn't even turn up on the nights of the Ed Sheeran concerts, which exacerbated the problem when the other concert was held in the capital city.

But we also saw, over three nights, the gateway into south-east Wales and south-west Wales, the Brynglas tunnels, do their usual trick of putting 'closed for business', because the traffic was piled up beyond the Severn bridge. Now, we have a policy difference here, First Minister. I believe that there should be a relief road built; you do not. I accept that you're the Government and that's your decision, and that's an argument that has passed us by now, but what cannot be allowed to continue, as we all want to see Cardiff capital city being a city that can stand shoulder to shoulder with the major cities and destinations of Europe, is that traffic cannot be brought to a standstill when major events are on. Do you believe that there needs to be a revision of your transport strategy, so that we can cater for these peak demand moments that obviously affect the freight industry, affect people going on holiday and people going about their everyday lives, because we cannot have the 'closed for business' sign over the gateway to south Wales?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:47, 7 June 2022

Llywydd, the leader of the opposition will, I know, understand that even if a decision had been made to go ahead with an M4 relief road, it would have made absolutely no difference at all over the last weekend, because it would, even from today, be another five years before such a road could be opened. So, it's not a solution to the problem that he has identified. Where the real solution comes is through the UK Government's union connectivity review. So, what I am looking forward to is the next stage of that review. The UK Government has provided money for the next stage, the development stage, of the review. He will know that Sir Peter Hendy said that this was one of the schemes that fitted, more than almost any other scheme that he had seen, within the criteria set down by the UK Government for investment in transport infrastructure that would assist travel through the different component countries of the United Kingdom. And, if we can get the union connectivity review to put that investment into the second line—the line that is there alongside the current mainline—that will allow for far more services to be run on the railways between south Wales and on past Bristol into the rest of England. Had that been available over last weekend, then I think it would have made a genuinely material difference, and I look forward to the UK Government finding the money to go alongside the report that it itself has commissioned.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:49, 7 June 2022

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you very much. This Sunday evening, some of us, such as the Llywydd, who had the incredible privilege of being there, but also the millions who were viewing on television, will have seen history being written, not only for Welsh football, but also on a broader level for the whole of Wales. So, First Minister, what to you think the legacy of reaching the World Cup for only the second time in our history will have in terms of our confidence as a nation? And doesn't it prove that with that sort of commitment and unity—the unity of the team, the staff, the supporters, all together—we can achieve anything as a nation when we focus our minds, our feet and perhaps, in the case of Wayne Hennessey, our hands too? But isn't Wales not only 'yma o hyd', still here, but, in terms of this generation, ready and confident that they can succeed on any stage, nationally or internationally?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:50, 7 June 2022

(Translated)

I thank Adam Price for that question. It was a privilege to be present in the stadium on Sunday evening, and the feeling in the stadium was so strong behind the Welsh team. But not just for the Welsh team, the respect that people showed towards the people who were there to support Ukraine as well, that was something that struck me while I was sitting in the stands in the stadium. Where I was sitting and around me, what people were talking about was not just football—of course, football was very important—but what the team and the success of the team said about Wales today and the confidence they had. And we know that, over the years, as a nation, we have suffered from lack of confidence sometimes in our future, and our capacity to make decisions on things that are important to the people of Wales. And we've seen time and time again teams just on the boundary of reaching the world stage and then, at the final hurdle, just falling short. That's the important thing that people were talking about in the stadium: the football, of course, but the message that the team and everything that was happening there were giving to people, particularly young people, people who are growing up in Wales today. People were referring to the young people in the team, people who have come through and who are playing for Wales, and that's the stage that's important to us: the World Cup stage of course, but a broader stage than that to build that confidence in the people of Wales for the future and in terms of what we can do when we work together.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:52, 7 June 2022

I think the fact that, even on this momentous occasion, the first thing the Welsh players did was to comfort the Ukrainian players and to applaud the Ukrainian supporters, I think was an encapsulation of the best of our Welsh values of compassion and internationalism.

The chief executive, Noel Mooney, if we could only bottle that Celtic energy, would be more popular than Guinness. He said that they're not just the football association, they're a movement, and in so many ways, they embody the values of the Wales we want to see: modern, bilingual, creative, inclusive. So, how can we use the World Cup, with its unparalleled global audience, to project that image of that Wales? The FAW have a lot on their plate, don't they, not least a few games they want to win this week? So, will the Welsh Government be setting up a team with people from across different sectors to exploit this fantastic opportunity for Wales? The FAW had their first meeting to plan for Qatar at 9.00 p.m on Sunday evening, and another one at breakfast the next morning. Can we show the same sense of urgency and commitment as them at the national level to maximise this opportunity?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:54, 7 June 2022

Well, Llywydd, I'd like to just use the opening Adam Price has offered to pay tribute again to the team from Ukraine and their supporters in the ground. When you think of the background to that game, they were fantastically committed. The team never gave up, right to the very end to the game, and you could see just how much it mattered to them as well. I thought they were an absolute credit to their country.

And we should pay some tribute to the FAW too, under the leadership of Noel Mooney. It is an organisation transformed. The things that Adam Price just said about the FAW, you would not always have been able to say those things of it during its history, could you? But, under its new chief executive, the Football Association of Wales does see itself as playing a different part in the public life of Wales than simply running football teams. And the things that you will have heard him say—and you and I had an opportunity to discuss some of those things with him on Sunday night—I think absolutely does demonstrate an organisation that has captured the zeitgeist, that understands that this is a moment for them in which they can help embody a series of important values about the sort of Wales that we would all wish to see. And, of course, we will, as a Government, be working alongside them and with them to make sure that we maximise the opportunity that Wales's exposure on that national stage—. A first game against the USA—you know, I seem to remember President Trump saying that if Joe Biden were to win the presidential election, the USA would end up looking like Wales. I thought it played a significant part in Joe Biden's triumph in that election myself. [Laughter.] But now, we'll have an opportunity to show people across the USA just what Wales has to offer.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:56, 7 June 2022

Football has given Wales this incredible opportunity. There is huge potential here to inspire, connect people, change lives, transform communities, build the nation, but we have to invest, don't we, to make the most of that. There will be a massive rise of interest in football among boys and girls—and we need to support the women's team to reach the FIFA World Cup in Australia and New Zealand next year also—and we need to make the most of this sporting dividend, which is, of course, a health and well-being dividend, both physical and mental. In my own home town of Ammanford, it's the football club that is at the heart of mental well-being outreach following the tragic loss of one of its team members. So, how are we going to invest, as a nation, in the physical infrastructure, in the social infrastructure of clubs, so that we can make sure that this World Cup leaves a legacy not just in Qatar, we hope, in workers and human rights there, but also in every community in Wales and for generations to come?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:57, 7 June 2022

Well, Llywydd, Adam Price touched on an issue there that we should not duck, should we? You know, we are absolutely delighted that Wales will be represented at Qatar, but we should not look the other way from the reservations that we would have as a nation from some of those human rights issues that we see there. And when my colleague Vaughan Gething was in Qatar in May, he took the opportunity, as he set out in his written statement to the Senedd, to raise those human rights issues directly with Qatari authorities in the context of the World Cup, and we must, ourselves, make sure that those opportunities are not missed while the eyes of the world are on that country.

Here, one of the things that—. As I sat next to the chief executive during the game, there was a man who had a £3 million cheque riding on the result of the game. He knew that if Wales proceeded to the next stage, then part of the way that the World Cup is organised is that £3 million would arrive with the FAW, and he said to me that he was determined that £2 million of that £3 million would be invested in grass-roots football and grass-roots facilities here in Wales. He was absolutely explicit in saying to me that while, of course, that shop window of football in Wales is what we were all watching, what really matters to him and to the FAW is the health of the game at that grass-roots level. It's why the Welsh Government, through Sport Wales, has invested £24 million in recent times in facilities for grass-roots sport in Wales. I very much agree with Adam Price that what we hope to get out of the sort of coverage and exposure that there will be of the World Cup is inspiration to young people to be out there playing football themselves, or taking part in whatever sport they find suits their aptitudes and abilities, and the Welsh Government will be there trying to make sure that we play our part in maximising those opportunities.