3. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with UK sports councils regarding the inclusion of transgender people in sport? OQ58150

Llywydd, Sport Wales was established by royal charter on 4 February 1972. Since 1999, it, rather than UK bodies, has been responsible for inclusion policy in sport in Wales. The council nevertheless works with other sports organisations and, together, published joint advice on transgender inclusion in domestic sport in September of last year.

First Minister, I feel the need to be clear, and I think it's important that I make it clear, that protecting women's rights does not for one moment mean that you're anti trans rights. Female competitors deserve the same rights as male competitors. We all know the huge benefits that sports can offer, and we all, I'm sure, want to ensure trans athletes can participate in sport. But what we don't want is a situation where we're trying to be so inclusive that it is to the detriment of a particular group. We have a situation where women athletes are so disheartened that they are pulling out of their own female categories because they say that trans women taking part in a female category have a male puberty advantage. Welsh Conservatives are looking at ways that we can help ensure that every athlete can compete, looking at ways that we can work with sporting bodies across the board, and looking at creating an open category to ensure fairness, inclusivity and safety across the board. I'm sure that we'll agree above all that it is of paramount importance that we ensure fairness in sport. It is fundamental to sport. First Minister, do you believe that trans athletes should compete in female sports? However you feel on this issue, to resolve it, it is fundamental that one can define a woman. So, First Minister, can you do something that many other Labour politicians have failed to do so far, which is define a woman?

My starting point is the same as Penny Mordaunt's—the UK Minister responsible at the time—who said that the UK Government's starting point was that transgender women are women. That's my starting point in this debate. It is a difficult area where people feel very strongly on different sides of an argument, and an argument that divides people who agree on most other things. What I say to the Member is that in such a potentially divisive issue, the responsibility of elected representatives is not to stand on the certainties of their own convictions, but instead to work hard to look for opportunities for dialogue, to find ways of promoting understanding rather than conflict, and to demonstrate respect rather than to look for exclusion. I do not understand the point that the Member makes—that you can be too inclusive. To me, inclusivity is absolutely what we should be aiming for here. The way to resolve those challenging issues that she's identified—and I've got no objection at all to her identifying them—is not to assume that because we ourselves may have strong views, that allows us to cast doubt on the sincerity of views held strongly by others. It's only by dialogue and by understanding that you can reach a conclusion to the sorts of questions the Member has raised.