5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to upgrade the sewer system in the Wye and Usk river catchment areas? OQ58216

I thank Laura Anne Jones for that question, Llywydd. The privatisation of the water industry by previous Conservative Governments transferred responsibility for the sewer system to water companies. Some sewer systems, such as septic tanks, remain the responsibility of private individuals.

Thank you, First Minister. It's good to see that a local MS, Peter Fox, also put a question in regarding rivers today, just reinforcing how important this issue is to our local community. First Minister, last weekend, I attended the march outlined by Peter Fox to save our river, alongside local campaigner Angela, local councillors, residents, anglers, dogs, my own family and many local children, all of whom enjoy our river, just showing the strength of feeling that there is on this issue. First Minister, I've grown up next to—playing in and fishing in—the River Usk, and now I take my children down to the river and we see more pollution, fewer fish and large amounts of green algae growing. It's desperately sad to see its rapid decline.

It was a very welcome announcement by Welsh Water, as you've outlined already, of £10 million funding that will be invested in the Usk to improve the water treatment works, and in the combined storm overflow—an investment that desperately was needed for a variety of reasons: to save biodiversity, wildlife and decreasing fish numbers. But, First Minister, you've, in part, answered my question already earlier on the river management and our regulatory framework that's in place, and, of course, I welcome, very much so, as the river management is in your jurisdiction, that you've taken this on board and listened to the UK Government and what they're doing under the new environment Bill, and replicating some of these things, and you'll now be piloting on a non-statutory basis, as you've outlined, hoping that that becomes statutory in 2024. We would welcome that. We need to get a grip on this issue before our rivers die.

First Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that we need to get a grip also on the sewage system. We've seen significant investment— 

You do need to come to your question now. You've outlined what was previously asked and answered; if you can ask your question, please. 

Diolch, Presiding Officer. Do you agree with me that we need to see significant investment from this Welsh Government at some point to replace or renew the antiquated sewage system in Wales, working with those that you outlined in your previous answer, so that it's fit for purpose for future generations? 

I agree with the Member about the need for very significant investment, but the investment comes from water companies. They are responsible, not the Welsh Government. There is money that the Welsh Government invests, and we have £40 million already being spent in this field over the next three years, but the responsibility does not lie with the Welsh Government. The responsibility lies with the water companies, and we are very lucky in Wales to have a not-for-profit water company so that millions and millions of pounds are not siphoned off from bill payers into the profits. This is the irony, Llywydd, isn't it? We have a publicly owned water industry in the United Kingdom; it's just that it's owned by the French Government and the German Government, not by our own Government, where those profits would be reinvested, as they are in Wales, and we're fortunate to be in that position. 

I hope that the next quinquennial review will see the sort of step change in investment in dealing with the issues. I do agree with the Member, and I agree with Peter Fox, that these are serious matters and we deserve to have a serious debate about it in Wales. And that does mean that we have to be prepared to face some challenging conversations. I will chair a summit at the Royal Welsh Show on phosphate pollution in our rivers. Yesterday, the Minister published research findings that have been carried out by independent researchers funded by Dŵr Cymru into the River Usk. It looked at daily levels of phosphorus in the river. Twenty-one per cent of those daily loads are the result of sewage treatment works. Those are elderly works without the modern levels of sophistication, and they need to be upgraded so that that can be reduced. Twelve per cent comes from what the researchers describe as other categories: septic tanks, urban run-off. One per cent comes from combined sewage outflow areas, and 67 per cent comes as a result of agricultural use of the land along the riverbanks.

That's why it is necessary to have a mature, non-blaming conversation with our farmer colleagues. I'm going to be absolutely clear about that. I'm not giving you these figures in any sense of wanting to point the finger at anybody, but it is just to illustrate the fact that if we are to have the impact on our rivers that I know the Member will want to see, and that's shared around the Chamber, you have to have a mature conversation in which all the interests that have a part to play are prepared to be part of that conversation, to recognise the actions that they can take. Cumulatively, that will lead to making the difference.