We will now discuss the first group of amendments, which relate to the establishment of the commission, and appointment and terms of its members. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 120, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the lead amendment and to speak to other amendments in the group. Laura Anne Jones.

Amendment 20 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Diolch, Llywydd, for this opportunity to contribute to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill. I will speak to my amendments 119 to 160. This group of amendments serves to ensure proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission surrounding the terms of remit.

With such a substantial budget to be at the disposal of the commission, it is only right that annual letters of remit are utilised to ensure that an arm's-length body can run efficiently, particularly when the likes of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales still believe there is a real risk of this single body not being able to achieve its strategic outcomes. We want to avoid the danger of allowing the Welsh Government to take action at operational level, as it would clearly create unclear governance arrangements, which in turn would cause delay and confusion. Crucially, these amendments will serve to make the appointment of the members of the commission, as well as the chair and members of the research and innovation committee, subject to a Senedd appointment process, as in previous amendments tabled in relation to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020. While I am disappointed that we find ourselves having to resubmit these amendments, my group and I's determination to ensure maximum independence for the commission compels me to table these amendments and stress their importance yet again.

On amendment 161, I'm seeking to omit the lines in the Bill that provide powers for the commission for tertiary education and research to restructure sixth form education. These are not powers that belong within the remit of the commission, and there is no reason to believe, even for a moment, that sixth form education across Wales would stand to benefit from interference of this nature.

Finally, on amendment 119, I am resubmitting this amendment as I still firmly believe in extending the time of the application of the Bill. It's important to allow for further consideration of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021. We need real reassurance that the Bill's application will not be impacted by any of the legal proceedings between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Turning to the Minister's amendments, I don't think they entirely address concerns set out in Stage 2 about the modification of strategic plans, as they are still allowed that power. Yes, it's been diluted a little, but only a little. I'd like to have seen that the Minister had adapted these plans to ensure that the commission will truly be an arm's-length body through his amendments tabled today. Thank you.

I have no speakers. I call on the Minister to respond to this group of amendments.

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to consider the amendments to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill today.

Before I speak to the amendments in this group, I'd like to place on record my thanks to the committees and all the Members for their scrutiny of this Bill, and particularly to those Members who've tabled amendments to the Bill today. Whilst it has not been possible to agree all amendments, may I place on record my assurance to Members that I have considered carefully each and every amendment tabled?

Turning to the amendments in this group, as I indicated when this was tabled at Stage 2, I reject amendment 119, which delays the affected provisions being brought into force until 1 January 2024. This will prevent the making of any commencement Orders, including in respect of those powers necessary to make preparatory arrangements to support the implementation of the commission in a manner that ensures continuity of provision for the sector and supports a smooth transition to the commission. In establishing the new commission, the Bill will bring together for the first time the funding, oversight and regulation of tertiary education and research in Wales, putting learners at its heart. As I've previously stated, the change is overdue, and it's essential it can happen as soon as practicable, whilst ensuring the implementation is robust and that stakeholders are not overburdened. In respect of the internal market Act, which I think is the reference the Member was making, I can confirm I don't consider there are any implications for this Bill, and I don't consider it warrants a significant delay to the implementation. 

I also reject amendment 120, which requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to the commission with respect to the manner in which it should exercise its functions and also review that guidance annually. When speaking to the amendment, Laura Anne Jones referred to it providing for an annual remit letter, in effect, and I don't consider that this amendment would actually provide for that, and in general terms we want to move to a longer term horizon, rather than the annual arrangements currently in place. Critically, I don't consider the amendment supports the principle of the commission being an arm's-length body. Instead, it provides for a bureaucratic and onerous process that risks significantly affecting the commission's ability to take the long-term strategic view that we wish it to take.

I am confident that our approach of the commission operating at arm's length from the Government, within a strategic planning and funding framework, is the correct way forward to meet our ambitions. This approach would not, however, prevent us from providing the commission with an annual remit letter, where necessary and appropriate, as that option remains part of the standard relationship between the Welsh Government and a sponsored body. In addition, section 20 of the Bill requires the commission to have regard to any guidance the Welsh Ministers may issue in respect of its functions under the Bill, the difference here being that guidance can be issued if needed as opposed to a duty to issue guidance on all of the commission's functions immediately, regardless of whether a need for such guidance has arisen. It is not my intention to issue guidance to the commission on all of their functions. As the national steward for tertiary education in Wales, I intend the commission to be provided with the autonomy to operate as an arm's-length body.

I also reject the remaining amendments in this group, which undermine the long-standing practice of ministerial appointments to public bodies. As I have confirmed during the previous stages, Llywydd, the chair and deputy chair and the chief executive will appear in front of the relevant Senedd committee for introductory hearings. In light of that, I call on Members to reject all the amendments in this group.

Laura Anne Jones to respond.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for your response, Minister. I'm disappointed, yet not surprised, that the Minister has rejected my amendments, but I would like to stress the importance yet again of ensuring proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission concerning its remit. I also feel we must emphasise the absolute necessity of an efficient arm's-length approach being guaranteed, and the value that extending the time of the application of the Bill would bring. It's imperative to the success of the commission that it has autonomy and independence to truly feel able to make decisions deemed necessary without the undue influence of Welsh Government Ministers.

I know what the Minister has said previously about the public appointments process, as we've heard it before in a previous health Minister's arguments on the citizen voice body during the passage of the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020, and most recently, at Stage 2 of this Bill. While of course we don't want to be overprescriptive about the commission's structure, I and my group have become increasingly concerned that certain appointments are closer to the Welsh Government than being truly independent. Granted, we have a small pool to work with in Wales, but I think there is a case to be made that Members of the commission should have been questioned and evaluated by the committee. I'm not sure if the Minister's response in the committee has allayed my own concerns about the separation of Welsh Government and the commission, especially as he didn't consider any provision needed to be placed on the face of the Bill. I move our amendments.

The question is that amendment 120 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 120. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 120: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 121, is it being moved? Laura Anne Jones.

Amendment 121 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Moved.

Amendment 121. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore we will move to a vote on amendment 121. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 121 is not agreed.

Amendment 121: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Laura Anne Jones, amendment 122. Is it being moved?

Amendment 122 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Moved.

Amendment 122. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is. We'll therefore move to vote on amendment 122.

Amendment 122 in the name of Laura Anne Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 122 is not agreed.

Amendment 122: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 123, Laura Anne Jones.

Amendment 123 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

The question that amendment 123 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. We will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 123.

Amendment 123, in the name of Laura Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 123 is not agreed.

Amendment 123: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 124, Laura Jones.

Amendment 124 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

The question is that amendment 124 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 124.

Amendment 124, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 124 is not agreed.

Amendment 124: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 125, Laura Jones.

Amendment 125 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there objections to amendment 125? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 125. Open the vote.

Amendment 125, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 125 is not agreed.

Amendment 125: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 126.

Amendment 126, Laura Jones.

Amendment 126 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is, to gwelliant 126. We'll move to a vote on amendment 126, in the name of Laura Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 126 is not agreed.

Amendment 126: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 127, Laura Jones.

Amendment 127 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 127? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 127.

Amendment 127, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 127 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment 127: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 128, Laura Jones.

Amendment 128 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Is there any objection to amendment 128? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 128.

It's amendment 128, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 128 is not agreed.

Amendment 128: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 129, Laura Jones.

Amendment 129 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

129 is moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 129? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 129. Open the vote.

Amendment 129, in the name of Laura Jones.

In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 129 is not agreed.

Amendment 129: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Amendment 130 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Amendment 130, are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 130. Open the vote.

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 130 is not agreed.

Amendment 130: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 131, Laura Jones.

Amendment 131 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

Amendment 131 is moved. Is there an objection to 131? [Objection.] Yes, there is.

We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 131. Open the vote.

Amendment 131 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 131 is not agreed.

Amendment 131: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 132.

Amendment 132, Laura Jones.

Amendment 132 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 132? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 132.

Amendment 132 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote.

Very effective.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 132 is not agreed.

Amendment 132: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 133, Laura Jones.

Amendment 133 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 133? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 133. Open the vote.

Amendment—[Inaudible.]

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 133 is not agreed.

Amendment 133: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 134, Laura Jones.

Amendment 134 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 134. Open the vote—

—on amendment 134 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 134 is not agreed.

Amendment 134: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 135, Laura Jones.

Amendment 135 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move, please.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 135. Open the vote.

Amendment 135 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 135 is not agreed.

Amendment 135: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

136, Laura Jones.

Amendment 136 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move, please.

Moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 135—no, 136. Amendment 136.

Amendment 136.

Open the vote.

Amendment 136 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 136 is not agreed.

Amendment 136: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 137, Laura Jones.

Amendment 137 (Laura Anne Jones) moved.

Move.

The amendment is moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 137. Open the vote.

It's amendment 137 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 137 is not agreed.

Amendment 137: For: 15, Against: 38, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected