Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:55 pm on 5 July 2022.
Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much for your statement. Of course, we welcome measures to introduce, in the terminology used, modern, accessible and bilingual law for the purpose stated. But, of course, often, the devil is in the detail. So, in your written statement yesterday on the introduction of the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill to this Senedd, you stated that you've
'identified Wales’ historic environment law as a suitable subject for the first project in an ambitious programme of legislative consolidation.'
Can you therefore confirm for the record—and you partially did so, but not wholly, in your introduction—that this is only a consolidation Bill and that the law itself, not just policy, will not be changed or amended to accommodate this? If it will be changed or amended—the law, specifically—in any way, I'd be grateful if you could specify how.
As I noted here last September, when responding to your statement on the accessibility of Welsh law:
'The Legislation (Wales) Act was all about gathering law into different subject filing cabinets, with a headline statute and everything else made with reference to that statute—a huge undertaking designed to help the public find and use law themselves.'
So, to what extent will this consolidation Bill complement or succeed this and what capacity do you and your department have to administer the potentially significant undertaking involved?
In your statement yesterday, you noted that:
'Our current historic environment legislation has become a confusing jumble of repeatedly amended provisions.'
And, of course, our current history itself has become a confusing jumble of facts, truths, myths and misconceptions. Last September, you quoted from the Book of Iorwerth, a text of the Gwynedd or Venedotian code of medieval Welsh law, where the kingdom of Gwynedd, or Venedotia, was a Roman empire successor state that emerged in sub-Roman Britain in the fifth century. Of course, other texts remind us that the goal of the Brythonic people, or Britons, in the west, then and over succeeding centuries, was also to reclaim the lost lands in the east and reunite with their British brethren across our island. Later texts remind us of how Norman invaders brutalised Britons across our island and established new codes of law. How will you, therefore, ensure that, in consolidating Wales's historic environment legislation, this often confused, complex and vital historic record is retained and clarified?
When we were taking evidence on the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill—now Act—in the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in 2015, one of my questions to the then Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism referred to concerns raised with us that the proposals had, quote,
'enormous implications for capacity and resources’, adding that this replicated
'concerns raised on other legislation...where, whatever the intent of the legislation, the cost identified...is far higher than that indicated in the explanatory memorandum.'
I therefore repeat my questions to you when I responded to your statement on accessibility of Welsh law last September: what is the total financial cost of this programme of legislative consolidation, and what assurance can you provide that this is not just something that will benefit the legal sector at great cost to the public purse? And finally, what consultation have you had with the historic environment sector itself regarding this Bill?