5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the proposed changes to the Human Rights Act 1998 on Welsh legislation and the devolution settlement? OQ58291

Thank you, again, very much for that question. The Welsh Government did not see the Bill before it was introduced. It requires, and is now receiving, careful consideration. We certainly continue to hold fundamental concerns about its potential regressive impact on human rights in the UK and on our positive agenda in Wales.

Thank you for that. I'm aware that you've given a response to the consultation noting your opposition, and I agree with everything that you've said in that consultation. It's unbelievable that the most corrupt Government of all time believes that it has the moral right to discriminate between the people who deserve to have human rights and those who don't. But, of course, people who truly believe in human rights know that their whole purpose is that they apply to everyone in the same way. The Government that has proposed these terrible changes is in the process of destroying itself, so it is, of course, possible that this will change. But it's also possible that its successor will continue with the plans, so it's essential to introduce a Welsh human rights Act quickly. I welcome what you've set out on this. Can I ask you whether you believe that the work of preparing the legislation, as well as the more general work of promoting human rights and supporting organisations to implement them, would be facilitated by establishing a Welsh commission on human rights, as has existed in Scotland since 2008?  

Firstly, I thank you for the comments and the very constructive points that have been made, and there is, of course, a lot of consideration being given to the issue of a bill of rights and, of course, my colleague the Minister for Social Justice has commented on that already. I made the point also in earlier questions, of course, that the Bill, as it's drafted, actually is about transferring rights of citizens on human rights issues back to Strasbourg rather than being able to raise them in the UK courts. So, it is about restricting that, and that is a very strange thing to be thinking about that.

Can I also say that what it also does is it raises very significant issues about the universality of international law? One of the reasons you have international courts is because it's clearly not appropriate, with fundamental principles, for the individual court to be able to pick and choose whether or not it likes those human rights or how it wants to interpret them. That has always been a fundamental principle, and, of course, it's a principle that UK Government recognises in terms of the International Criminal Court and the investigation of war crimes taking place in Ukraine. And it is a great irony, isn't it, that the Russian Duma has passed legislation to remove the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights from Russia at the same time as the UK Government is actually diminishing the role of the European Court of Human Rights for the United Kingdom, and there is a real concern about that overlap in terms of the approach to the importance of international law.

Some very good analysis and articles have been coming out about the whole issue of human rights and where the UK stands within that, and I'd say this—this was from Professor Mark Elliott, a very senior academic at Cambridge University—

'the Government dislikes scrutiny and views accountability mechanisms as threats that should be neutralised or at least marginalised.'

And I think that exactly sums up what the position is of the UK Government. He said it's an authoritarianism and an authoritarian restriction of scrutiny. And if you read through the Bill, that is exactly what it does and what it achieves. Of course, it has many other implications as well, but there will undoubtedly be further debate on this. We are very opposed to it, and we're also very supportive of work to look at how we might incorporate and maintain standards of human rights within our own constitutional structure and within our own legislation.

Good afternoon, Counsel General.

Thank you to Delyth for raising this very important issue.

I do think this opens up a wider debate that is needed here in Wales regarding our collective human rights. As you've said, many UN conventions were enshrined in EU legislation, and given the current Government's record on attempting to dismantle much of what is left of EU law, it would be, as you said, and as Delyth has alluded to as well, sensible for us here in Wales to take a more proactive approach in enshrining our rights in law. So, I wonder if I could just ask a more focused question around the formation, as you've touched on, of a Welsh bill of rights. Could you outline what the steps would be towards a Welsh bill of rights, and particularly what engagement and what powers we would need from the Conservative Government in order to advance this? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you for that, and thank you for your support. Just to make two comments that follow on from some of the things you say, of course, within the Bill of Rights Bill proposed, it excludes section 3 of the Human Rights Act, which requires courts to interpret domestic legislation compatibly with convention rights, and it also has no replacement for section 2 of the Human Rights Act, which requires courts to take account of European Court of Human Rights jurisprudence. So, there's nothing like that within the Bill, and that is an indication, I think, of the extent to which it is actually breaking away from the whole process of human rights, and indeed from the Council of Europe. Of course, the commissioner for human rights at the Council of Europe, which the UK was involved in setting up in 1959, has really said that it is a backward step. Of course, a number of comments have been made recently about the backsliding on human rights within the United Kingdom Government, and I think anyone who's following the debates that are taking place will have a lot of agreement with that.

In terms of the practical steps as to how it might happen, the starting point is this, isn't it: that we had the very important paper that the Minister for Social Justice had commissioned on behalf of Welsh Government by Simon Hoffman of Swansea University, which has given a very, very detailed analysis of those human rights issues. Since, then, the establishment of a human rights body, grouping, with sectoral representatives and all those aspects of civic society and so on that are engaged in the human rights field, I think I will be in an appropriate place to be considering and discussing how it might be achieved. On my role in terms of the Welsh Government and the legal side, what we want to do is to explore, really, the complexities of how we might actually do it in a way that is within competence, that actually does more than just repeat the various human rights aspects and the conventions, and actually gives us some clear substance and focus on what it is we actually want to achieve within Welsh legislation, because we already have legal obligations under the Government of Wales Act to actually do that. But I can assure you that we're committed to looking at that. I don't say, by any stretch of the imagination, that it is something that is easy, that does not have considerable complexities. But, bearing in mind the debate that's taking place, it's very important work that has begun and will continue.