Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, like you, I was listening to the exchange between the leader of the opposition and the First Minister yesterday in regard to waiting times and that's a line of questioning I want to continue today. Can you confirm that the number of people waiting longer than two years for NHS treatment in Wales has increased by nearly 900 per cent in the past year?

What I can tell you is the number of people waiting for two years actually reduced in the latest figures that came out just a few weeks ago. They reduced by 3.4 per cent. So, I think that shows that, actually, we're heading in the right direction. Obviously, we'll have more figures coming out next week, which will demonstrate to us whether that change has continued. Obviously, we've got to take account of the fact that COVID is not over, and the very fact that we still have almost 2,000 people off sick because of COVID or COVID-related issues means that, actually, the challenge is still there. And so, of course, we've got to plan. The difficulty, of course, is that if you keep on getting these waves, we're going to be knocked back. But I was actually very heartened by the fact that, for the first time, we saw those figures coming down in the last month.

Thanks for the answer, Minister, and whilst, of course, it's good news that that waiting time for a one-month period is coming down, but the long-term sustained trajectory is in the wrong direction of course. So, if we look back at 12 months ago, the figure was 7,600 and now it's 68,000. So, those are the figures over the last 12 months. And the numbers have, sadly, sky-rocketed in that period. Despite what you say, the numbers have sky-rocketed. And, of course, I also agree with you: there is the issue of COVID and the pandemic—that has affected NHS services right across the UK and right across the world. But what we have seen here is a much worse position, and I would say that that's as a result of mismanagement from the Government and that's why we're seeing massive underperformance here in Wales. Because a number of people in Wales, many of whom are sadly waiting in pain on a waiting list that is five times—five times—higher than the whole of England, and that's taking into account the much larger population in England—. We have got five times the figure of people waiting on our waiting list here than in England. On top of that, the average waiting time here is 10 weeks longer than that of England. And one in four Welsh patients are waiting over a year for treatment; that, in England, is one in 20. Now, I appreciate, Minister—

You need to ask the question, please.

I appreciate, Minister, your personal commitment, and I appreciate you've only been in post for 12 months, and I appreciate you've been dealt a poor hand. But can I ask you for your assessment of why the Welsh Government is looking at this much worse position than that in any other part of the UK? And surely you've got to recognise failures to understand where improvements need to be made.

Thanks very much. Well, Russell will be aware that the figures have gone up everywhere in the past year; this is not a unique situation—they've sky-rocketed everywhere. And, of course, we're all challenged now, in terms of getting those lists down, and that's why we did publish our planned care proposal back in April, where the targets are very, very clearly set out. I can tell you that I'm having regular meetings with the chairs of the health boards, just to underline the importance of hitting those targets. You will be aware that the way we count our lists is very significantly different from the way they count in England. So, we include the number of people waiting for diagnostic treatment and therapies—that's a significant number of people. So, you're comparing apples and pears here, and it is important that people understand that. We also include follow-up appointments after diagnostic tests. And if you transfer between one consultant and another, we start a new pathway, so that's counted again. So, yes, sometimes we don't help ourselves, if I'm honest. So, that is difficult, and I've obviously asked if we can look at the way we count, but it's a major, major issue to change the way we count. And to be quite honest, I just think we're being more transparent with the public about the reality of the situation, in a way that I'm afraid your Conservative Government in England is not being transparent.

Well, no, the fact is that in Wales we have 68,000 people waiting for over two years, and in England it's 12,700. That's what the figures say. Now, I do appreciate—

You're not counting half of them, that's why.

—what you've just said. I do appreciate what you've just said, and you're willingness to look at the way you measure those figures, because perhaps it would be the correct piece of work for the Government to undertake, to make that comparison. Because what would those figures then be able to tell us? They would be able to tell us we're still in the same position—that the Welsh Government is in a much worse significant position. Now, what would help, of course, the backlog, and reducing the backlog, would be the roll-out of regional surgical hubs, which we called for back in summer 2020. I've spoken to a number of health bodies and professionals this week, telling us we've still not got them in Wales, we're still waiting for them, and that is the way out, in part, of the position that we're in. And I know, Minister, you've made promises that they're going to be rolled out, but we're yet to see them being delivered. And until this is addressed, we're not going to see and not going to escape the waiting lists that we're currently in. The UK Government started to prepare for the post-pandemic at a much, much earlier stage. In fact, your predecessor said it would be foolish to do the same here. So, do you regret the words of your predecessor, when he said—and it demonstrates, I think, an attitude of complacency—that it would be foolish to start the planned care out of pandemic before the pandemic was over? And do you not accept as well that, in order to make progress, we've got to see the roll-out of regional surgical hubs at a much quicker pace, and that is part of the way out of this problem that we're in? And can you give us an update on regional surgical hubs?

Well, as you know, I'm very keen to see the development of regional surgical hubs. I am restricted by the amount of capital funding that we've been given by the UK Government—that's what's tying my hands at the moment. And let me tell you that we are already initiating these; you'll have seen yesterday that we are centralising and having one of these surgical hubs, for vascular services, in south Wales. So, it's already happening. There are lots of examples already of this happening in orthopaedic areas and in eye cataract operations. You've seen what's happened in Cardiff; there is another regional centre in Swansea. So, these already exist. Now, how many more can we do? Obviously, we're very interested in seeing how many more, but we are restricted and restrained at the moment by our capital abilities. But let me tell you that we had a discussion with the Royal College of Surgeons recently, and what they were keen for us to do, and what I've been pressing the health boards to do, is to make sure that we use the existing capacity more efficiently, and I think we've still got some headway to make on that. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth. 

Thank you very much, Diprwy Lywydd. I want to focus on long COVID. Recent figures by the Office for National Statistics suggest that some 60,000 people in Wales could be living with long COVID, and the wave we're currently in makes me concerned that the numbers will increase. Now, many of those suffering are people who acquired the virus whilst working in health and care services. Since the beginning of this month, those who fell ill early during the pandemic are not now paid in full, whilst they are in similar health roles in England and Scotland. Does the Minister agree that health boards should use the discretion that I understand that they have to continue to pay full salaries until they've done everything within their gift to bring these workers who do want to serve within our health services back into post where they can do that?

Thank you very much, and it is true that there are many people who are suffering from long COVID. I was speaking to a mother yesterday who was talking to me about her son who suffers from long COVID, and I think it is important that we do recognise that this is a very difficult situation, particularly for those who have served us all during the pandemic. And that's why we have been very careful in this area, in trying to ensure that we have spoken to the unions before we moved forward, and that everyone understands that there are exceptions that are possible, and that the health board can use their discretion, and I would suggest that they do take that opportunity. 

I'm very pleased to hear that, and I do hope that Members here, in representing their constituents, will remind their health boards in their constituencies and regions that they have that discretion.

I'm also pleased to hear the Minister mention long COVID and its impact on children particularly. I am concerned that there is a lack of support for children and young people with long COVID. I've spoken to a number of parents—one who said that they'd had to wait five months for a referral, and had had to go private to a paediatrician, and paid hundreds of pounds per month for a chiropractor to give some comfort to her son. The Long Covid Kids organisation say that it's still difficult to get professional health workers, doctors and so on, to accept that what's in front of them is actually long COVID.

So, can the Minister tell us what research the Welsh Government is willing to commission and invest into long COVID, and its impact on children and young people particularly, and what can be done to ensure that that support is available for children and young people, because they will be left behind because of the time it is happening in their life cycle? 

You are quite right, and I think that we have to be very careful. The impact on children is something that's going to affect them for a long time if we don't deal with this issue at an early stage. We will be having an update on the recovery before long, and I've asked to ensure that we do consider children as we look at how that programme proceeds. And you're aware that, as we develop that plan, it is something that we wanted to see changing as we learn more about the virus and about the way in which people are suffering. 

The fact that we are still, every six months, having an opportunity to look again at what's happening does give us an opportunity to look at what you've pointed out today. 

Question 3 [OQ58355] has been withdrawn. Question 4, Joel James.