We'll move now to the short debate, and I call on Jenny Rathbone to speak on the topic that she has chosen.

If Members are leaving, please do so quietly.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to each of Joyce Watson, Peter Fox and Luke Fletcher to enable them to contribute to this debate.

As rolling out universal free school meals to all primary schools is one of the most important and radical proposals in the partnership agreement with Plaid, and we've allocated £260 million to make it happen, we have to ensure that we get it right and actually achieve our policy objectives. This isn't just about making sure no child goes hungry in school; it has to be the way in which we transform children's relationship with food in the face of the obesogenic culture that encourages people to eat all the wrong things.

As the statement by the Minister made clear yesterday, the first milestone of all reception children getting free lunches from the beginning of this term seems to have been largely met. A lot of schools and local authorities seem to have been able to do this fairly easily. Eight councils have already extended provision beyond reception classes, well ahead of the Government timeline of April for both years 1 and 2 as well, so 45,000 pupils are already benefiting from this new scheme.

Nine months from the announcement is very little time operationally to achieve this. It doesn't mean to say it was easy. Two local authorities, in correspondence with me on this, have highlighted the challenges of sourcing equipment that's part of the legacy of both COVID and of Brexit. Anglesey reported overcoming myriad challenges around sourcing additional equipment as a result of the contract they've entered into with Chartwells, which is a subsidiary of Compass, who are going to run their school meals, or are indeed running their school meals.

In Cardiff local authority, every single school had to be surveyed to identify which were the top priorities for kitchen refurbishment during the school holidays, and getting 18 kitchens refitted within that six-week time span meant costed plans, procuring contracts and making sure they were completed during the holiday time. It was really no mean feat and seriously surprised the cabinet member for education that it was achieved. Cardiff also highlighted a longstanding working relationship with local kitchen fitting companies that enabled them to get the job done. So, the fact that one school in Cardiff and five in Bridgend are still serving pupils a cold lunch while their kitchen refurbishments are completed is really a minor matter. Frankly, the size of their kitchens is really a sideshow compared to getting qualified catering staff and ensuring that all children are served and have enough time to eat their lunch in the hour allotted on most schools' timetables.

I understand why Welsh Government wanted to start at the beginning, but starting universal free lunch roll-out in reception is a challenge all of its own. Four-year-olds are having to cope with the newness of the noise, the new faces, involved in the biggest transition in their lives. Also, being invited to eat food they may never have tasted before is a really big challenge.

So, we shouldn't be surprised that, in the first week of term, only just half the reception children at Tredegarville Church in Wales Primary School in Cardiff were eating the school lunch they were entitled to. It's difficult to understand the complexity of the reasons why the others weren't taking it up, but some of it is to do with the anxiety of the parent, who wants to ensure that the child is getting something they know they like. They didn't have the 'Will I drop the tray?' anxiety, which any four-year old would experience, because the meal was being served in the classroom for those particular children. And I'm sure that take-up will improve as the pupils see what their classmates are enjoying in the way of food and they begin to think, 'Well, I'd like to have a go at that as well.' So, it's really important that packed lunch children are not segregated from school meal eaters, because it also produces a disincentive; if your particular friend always has a packed lunch, you are going to have a packed lunch too. But if you've got free choice, then it makes it much easier to promote it to everybody.

It's a real challenge for headteachers, because very young children need time to eat, and the lunch break is never more than an hour. So, at Albany school, the reception children go into the dining room first, and are lovingly looked after by the class teacher, the teaching assistants and the midday meal supervisors, and that's necessary with children of such a young age. Based on my own grandchildren's evolving relationship with food, I sympathise with the anxious parent who ignored their child's free school meal entitlement and sent them in with a beautifully prepared packed lunch instead, which this girl showed me, full of wonderful vegetables and fruit—all of it untouched; I'm sure it was all going to go home. It's really complicated with very small children.

Bear in mind that children arrive in reception aged four with the eating habits they've acquired from birth. Toddlers will be obliged to adopt the eating habits of their parents—that's what they've been exposed to. So, what happens in households where no fresh fruit or vegetables are available because of poverty or of other complex reasons—generations of not being able to understand what is the best for us? Unless children at a young age are exposed to a range of tastes, they may be reluctant to try something new. Some even develop something called neophobia, which is literally a fear of the new, and others won't eat food that is touching another food—I know all about that—or will only eat specific things. It's really important that we do not use food as a reward, because otherwise we may be setting up really serious problems for the future. If you say, 'If you do this, if you behave today, we'll give you an ice cream', what are you doing? You are rewarding the child. The emotional response is that you're going to get a reward in something that's nice to have, but not particularly good for you. So, there's a really complex set of arrangements around weaning and encouraging children to eat a healthy, balanced diet.

It's probably the most important initiative we have, to ensure that every child gets a healthy, balanced diet through the primary school breakfast and the nutritious hot lunches. Brutally, we can't afford not to do it, because we can't go on spending 10 per cent of our NHS budget on treating type 2 diabetes, which is really driven by poor diet and the resulting obesity. We cannot go on tolerating the number of children aged five who have missing, decayed or filled teeth—one of the strongest indicators of food poverty and poor nutrition, which I witness time and again, every time I go into an educational institution. The teachers report that, yes, the parents of those children don't have any teeth, because what's going on at home is people eating all the wrong things and probably not looking after their teeth.

So, we really do have to question what health visitors are managing to do to really make a difference in their interactions with parents, to ensure that new generations of children are not suffering from the problems that current adults have today. And on the radio today, yet another report about the significant rise in a series of cancers, all related to poor diet—and that's across lots of countries, not just our country. We can't go on like this, despite the apparent ambition of the latest UK Government to row back on the obesogenic food culture that we have allowed to dominate our lives.

Developing healthy citizens is one of the core purposes of the new curriculum, and it's a challenge for all those involved in the education of children. We can't go on having children who simply don't know that carrots come out of the ground. The School Food Trust did a survey of English infant pupils who ate free school lunches. They demonstrated, in 2010, that they had tried food at school that they had not tried at home, and half of the parents questioned said that their children had asked for foods that they had eaten at school to be cooked at home. The most popular items—probably no surprise to us—were carrots, sweetcorn and peas, because these are rather sweet, whereas the least popular were aubergine, chickpeas and spinach. But, you know, the more that we encourage children to try, and the more that we involve parents in supporting their children to pre-book the meals that will make the child feel more comfortable, that they are going to get served what they wanted, and also minimising food waste—. It's really developing that family learning.

We need to involve children in growing food, as well as preparing it. That will also be a really good way of getting them to eat new things. For example, Cardiff built on the experience of the summer Food and Fun scheme, where children had enjoyed making and eating spicy bean casserole. It's now a fortnightly feature on Monday's school meals menus in Cardiff, where the chef at one of the schools that I visited said, 'Oh, I don't know if they are going to like that.' She is not somebody who likes spicy food, so you just have to hope that she doesn't influence the take-up. I'm sorry to see that they have put it up against tomato and cheese pizza, which is a challenge, I have to say. Nevertheless, you can see how it's such an exciting moment for really endorsing and developing healthy future generations. There is more that I could say on all of that, but I want to move on, really, because I'm going to run out of time. 

Food procurement is the next step that we need to look at. Carmarthenshire has been in the lead because of some of the grants that they have had through our colleague, Lee Waters, in a former role. They haven't yet made any changes to school menus, to date, because they have had to focus on ensuring the roll-out of universal free school meals to students. So, they haven't amended any of their menus. But I was, nevertheless, delighted to see that on their menu is a lot of home-made food, and I asked, 'What do you mean by home-made food?' Home-made food means food made in the school, so the smell of that food will penetrate the dining rooms, and will obviously enable the cook to amend things. If kids don't like one thing, they can change it to be another thing.

We are very lucky to have people like Castell Howell and Harlech Foodservice as our food suppliers, who are Welsh, and who are really keen on the agenda to really improve food procurement. But we really do have to take it a lot further. As Carmarthenshire said, this is really about system change, and it's complicated. So, they are experimenting in Carmarthenshire to see how they can get local produce onto the public school sector plate, and they have used Government grants to look at this, working with food experts and CLES to do this. But we have to realise that, in the current context, with all the current problems, this is phase two of the scheme, and something that I'm really excited about, but it's not something that's going to happen overnight. So, thank you for listening, and I look forward to hearing other people's contributions.

The Member has indicated that she wants three people to speak, but as you can see, the time allocation is tight. Minister, you are not going to take 15 minutes, are you?

No.

Therefore, I'll give a bit of flexibility. Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’ve said it several times already: the introduction of free school meals is a massive step in the right direction, particularly given the challenges people are now facing. Of course, I’d like to see it rolled out to comprehensive and further education colleges, but this isn’t to detract from what is an ambitious undertaking in the first place. It’s something I’ve been proud of as a member of Plaid Cymru, a policy that we’ve continuously pushed for a number of years now, and it’s an example of what can be achieved when parties come together. We were absolutely right, as a party, to put this as our top priority going into those co-operation agreements.

In terms of the opportunities, the reality is that they are endless—for well-being, for the economy, for the future of Wales. Hungry kids can’t learn. Remove that hungry element and we begin to level the playing field—not entirely, but still by some way. It certainly was a lifeline for me. Perhaps my family and I didn’t realise it at the time, but looking back it was definitely significant in getting me to where I am today.

I know the Dirprwy Lywydd has said that time is tight. There’s much more I want to say. I’m sure he’s always keen to see me go over time, even though he won’t admit it, but I am proud of this policy, I am proud of the fact that Wales is leading the way here, and I am grateful that this is happening.

Can I thank you, Jenny, for giving me an opportunity to say a few words? And can I also pay tribute to your work on a range of social justice issues since you were elected, and for your role as chair of our cross-party working group on free school meals, which I’m really pleased to be part of?

School meals are of course a daily part of the diets of many children, and so it’s important that they are healthy and nutritious, to help promote good health in those who receive them, as well as the associated educational benefits. There is then an opportunity to really think about how best we link up local producers to deliver high-quality food and procurement opportunities, opened up by the new schools meals policy, so that we can deliver not just benefits to students, but to local communities as well. For example, the upcoming Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill will enshrine the principle of socially responsible procurement into law. That procurement should be about more than simply who provides the cheapest product. So, I really hope that local authorities will get additional support and resources to strengthen their procurement capacity so that we can secure benefits for all, and I’d be interested to know what work is happening behind the scenes to review what foods schools currently access, and the potential for local producers to secure more access to schools through those suppliers, like Castell Howell and Harlech Foodservice. Thank you.

Research has shown that many children simply opt out of getting their free school dinner—there’s been a lot of work done on that—and that’s because they face stigma from their peers. But this policy, this universal free school meal policy, removes that stigma, and that is really something to be proud of. We know that children like to fit in, and I believe that having universal free school meals will help to eradicate that stigma. But what I’m going to call for here is to ensure that we don’t remove one stigma and replace it by another. I’m going to ask here that schools will be providing plant-based options on their menu. There is a significant growth in the number of children who are now being brought up who choose exclusively a plant-based—otherwise ‘vegan’—diet, for health and ethical reasons. I fear that failing to offer at least one plant-based option on the menu could mean that those children who have been freed from the stigma of having to apply for a free school meal will become victims of another stigma, where that food won’t be something that they would opt for, and they are made to feel different again, rather than fitting in.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to respond to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’d like to begin by thanking Jenny Rathbone for bringing this short debate to the Senedd Chamber. Jenny’s work and passion in this area, and in the broader area of food policy, is obviously very well known to us, but I’d also like to thank her for her support and the advice she's provided as we implement this key policy area. I think the passion and the insight that you bring to the area was evident, if I may say, from your opening speech. And it is vital, in the way that Members have been speaking about, that we capitalise on the opportunities that this presents to us through the delivery of our universal primary free school meals offer. Equally, as has been mentioned by more than one speaker, we need to recognise and work to overcome the challenges that will line our path in doing so.

Yesterday, I updated the Chamber on progress made in delivering universal primary free school meals, a key commitment within our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. And in doing so, I highlighted some of the challenges that we've already met head on in our determination to support as many families as we can as quickly as possible, as the cost of living continues to rise. As I mentioned yesterday, that partnership way of working, that team Wales approach, has been essential in delivering free school meals to an additional 45,000 children in less than two academic terms. And it is right that we prioritise these efforts at pace, and we will continue to do that.

However, we are very, very alive to other aspects of this transformational intervention, which will ensure that we can maximise outcomes for all our learners, their families and communities right across Wales. While our immediate priority was responding to the cost-of-living rises, our other ambitions seek to reduce health inequalities, embed socially-responsible public procurement, improve well-being and address the environmental costs of extended supply chains. And so, universal free school meals also is a catalyst for pushing forward our ambitions in relation to the foundational economy, social partnership and public procurement.

But there are challenges associated with the delivery and commitment of this scope and scale. Firstly, if we are truly to reduce health inequalities, instilling longer term healthy eating habits, we've got to prioritise the delivery of healthy, nutritious meals. And in the way that Jenny Rathbone was talking about, this needs to be part of a wider whole-school approach to food education, connecting learners with the origins of their food, helping them make healthy choices, and emphasising the social significance and joy of sharing a meal together.

The pandemic, the situation in Ukraine, the cost-of-living crisis and energy rises represent significant challenges to public service delivery, and there are also challenges in how we collectively embrace procurement approaches that benefit everybody, and which look at other broader objectives alongside price, in the way that Peter Fox was speaking about in his contribution. We've got to make better use of our levers to drive public procurement, which can then create benefits in other ways, reducing the leakage of money from communities and the environmental cost of extended supply chains.

And the boost to demand that this represents brings real opportunities to re-localise a more sustainable food chain, and increase Welsh food onto our public plates. These elements are front and centre to our ambitions for free school meals, introducing the possibility of a major step change in policy and in practice. But there are some barriers that line our path, and we need to address those: understanding the Welsh market and suppliers' capacity to grow and supply local, sustainable food is essential; education and upskilling at all points in the food chain are needed to drive changes to culture and practice. [Interruption.] Certainly. Do you want to make an intervention?

Yes, is that—? Thank you very much.

You can intervene on the Minister. 

I was wondering, you're doing such a great job in introducing these school meals, but what we are missing here is: can there be classes teaching these children how to cook? And that should be one of the steps, so that we don't go on and on for these, and it should not be free. There might be then a time we can put an end to it.

Absolutely. I agree that it is an important opportunity for us to bring a whole-school approach to healthy eating. I think it's absolutely one of the key opportunities.

The first opportunity that we have in terms of embedding healthy, nutritious food as part of the whole culture of the school is the update to the healthy eating in schools regulations, which we want to support with a national conversation, and that will see those regulations are brought into line with the latest scientific advice, and it'll help us reframe our approach to food education in the way that we've been discussing today. And I want to make sure that we develop those proposals through the lens and in the context of the Curriculum for Wales as well, because there are opportunities and touch points for both those policy areas. We will work in partnership with the WLGA and local authorities to provide the kind of challenge and support for menu design and certification of compliance with the regulations that will be essential to be able to move forward in this area.

And I think there's an opportunity to develop here a mindset of creating value through food procurement rather than simply looking at cost savings, despite all the other challenges that we face. And so, in the autumn, there'll be new legal guidance, developed through our foundational economy programme, which will support public services to buy more local, sustainable food. And alongside this, the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, which we've mentioned already in the debate, represents a real opportunity to strengthen foundational economy approaches in food procurement and then raising its profile across the entire system. There's a new procurement duty, which will help deliver socially responsible outcomes with social value at the centre, and there will be extra data requirements so we can capture what's going on in the system and help improve our food data reporting. We are already planning support to bring a more co-ordinated and consistent approach to public sector food procurement, which will help food firms be public sector ready, and this includes partnership work to develop a new public sector food programme and a public sector food strategy for Wales. And we're learning from some of the promising practice that has already been referred to in the debate across Wales, including Carmarthenshire and the council's work there to shorten supply chains, reduce carbon emissions, improve links in the food supply chains and build local supplier capacity as well. We're also looking at successful models of school meal provision in places like Malmö, in East Ayrshire, in Hackney, which emphasise the importance of education, upskilling and strong leadership in the system as well. And crucially, they also involve children in tasting new dishes, which Jenny Rathbone was speaking about in her contribution, and offering the kind of range in the menus, the seasonality and the provenance, and the options, such as plant-based alternatives, which Joyce Watson was calling for in her contribution. And finally, officials are engaging with Welsh public sector food procurement developments, working closely with wholesalers and suppliers to explore opportunities for switching to Welsh supply.

So, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, through the terms and conditions of our universal free school meals grant, we're influencing procurement and delivery practice on the ground already. That's an initial step in a longer journey that will certainly require a united front across portfolios in Government, public services more broadly, and our partners as well. And we've already demonstrated what might be achieved, I think, when different parts of the system collaborate in this way, and I think at the heart of it, really, is the fundamental insight that this is more even than just an investment in a plate of food; it's also an investment in the well-being of our future generations and in the health of our economy as well. Diolch yn fawr.

I thank the Minister.