Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

1. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language – in the Senedd at 1:39 pm on 12 October 2022.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:39, 12 October 2022

(Translated)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones.

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative 1:40, 12 October 2022

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I have always been supportive of the idea that sex education needed to be updated in Wales. It was archaic and needed changing, but in the right way. I find the already apparent failures that we're seeing to get RSE right quite upsetting. If things are not adapted, we will miss an opportunity here to genuinely make better sex education for children and young people across Wales. The good from the much-needed changes that we're seeing in sex education will be lost due to not ensuring age appropriateness of content and language when delivering such important messaging to our children and young people. As I heavily stressed to the former Minister, Kirsty Williams, who has three children of her own, the new content of what was being taught needed to—and she agreed—(a) use vocabulary that can be understood by the child/young person that's being taught, and (b), and most importantly, make sure that the content was not confusing and was age appropriate. We are one month into this new term and the official beginning of the new curriculum RSE being delivered, and it's abundantly clear from parents and teachers alike that some of the teaching materials that have been recommended are concerning to them. And they are most certainly not—a worrying number of materials recommended—age appropriate after all. As a mother to a 12 and three-year-old myself, I'm deeply concerned about what we're hearing—

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:41, 12 October 2022

You are going to have to come to a question now; you have three questions in this session, and you're already 50 per cent over time. 

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

Minister, let me read you an excerpt from a book—

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

No, no, no; I don't think you have time. You can read that in your next question within your next minute. Can you come to a question?

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

Okay. Minister, it's important that everyone be whoever they want to be, and we need to teach understanding and respect for all. But don't you agree with me that what is being taught absolutely needs to be right for that child's age, so they (1) understand the language being used, and (2) are emotionally mature enough to digest the content of it?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:42, 12 October 2022

Well, I'll begin by saying that being a parent isn't a prerequisite for caring about the well-being of our children in Wales. [Assembly Members: 'Hear, hear.'] and that my priority as Minister, which is shared very widely in this Chamber, is to make sure that our young people are protected and are enabled to live lives that are healthy and safe. We work with the NSPCC in order to make sure that the resources that we've provided, the code and the legislation, meet that standard. There are those who disagree with what we are doing. They need to account for their own motivations, but that is the basis upon which we are introducing the reforms. 

The Member repeats unspecific, generic, broad-based points that she made the last time I was answering questions in this Chamber. As a consequence of the very dangerous implication, I think, that she was making, I wrote to her inviting her to spell out to me any specific examples that she was alluding to in the Chamber and she has not replied. 

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

Thank you, Minister. I was getting on to that; I'm just about to read you an excerpt from a book that is meant to be for five-year-olds. This book, which was recommended, is called Who are you?, Minister, with one quote from it saying:

'When babies are born, people ask if it's a boy or a girl. Babies can't talk, so grown-ups make a guess by looking at their bodies'

—for five-year-olds. 

This next sentence in the book:

'People can be transgender, queer, non-binary, gender fluid, transgender-neutral, a-gender, gender-neutral, bigender, third gender and two-spirit.'

Now, it is not the content that I'm concerned about, Minister; it's the content in a book for a five-year-old that I am getting at. I am not having a go at the teaching profession, a profession I hold in high regard. It is the materials that are being recommended by this Government for them to teach, that they themselves are concerned about, heads are concerned about, and parents are concerned about. That is what I am doing. And you sent me a letter, as did a member of the union, who's a former Labour staffer, I hasten to had, and I just want to say again on record that I would never dream of attacking a profession that I hold in such high regard. It is the content, Minister. It is my job to hold you to account and to speak up for the parents who are concerned about what is being sent out as advisory to look at for their children. A five-year-old being able to say all those big words, Minister—can you understand?

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:44, 12 October 2022

You are going to have to ask your question, Laura Anne Jones. I don't know what's so difficult about asking a question. Come to your question. 

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

Thank you, Llywydd. Will you now take immediate action to ensure that local authority, school and youth service education resources are age appropriate, and immediately remove those that aren't, and also those that signpost to Mermaids? Will you commit to reviewing materials that are found to be unnecessary for this age group, and ensure that the materials are led by science, as well as including gender ideology, age appropriateness—

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:45, 12 October 2022

You've already asked three questions in that series of questions. You are not to ask your third question. You've asked plenty of questions in this session—already four minutes of time spent on it. Can I ask the Minister, please, to respond to any of those questions? 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

I'll put it as neutrally as I can. I think the Member does a disservice to the young people of Wales in the way in which she's going about this line of questioning. I'm perfectly prepared to answer questions, as I did last time. I invited her to draw to my attention specific material that she alleged, the last time we spoke, was in use in schools. She has not done that. I would invite her to do that, so that it can be resolved, rather than used simply as a debating point on her behalf. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams. 

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, the impact of the cost-of-living crisis is as bad, if not worse, than the effects of COVID for some students. That was the view of the vice-chancellor of the University of South Wales, Ben Calvert, as he gave evidence to the Children, Young People, and Education Committee last week. He warned that he was particularly concerned about mature students who were at risk of leaving key courses, such as healthcare and nursing courses, because they couldn't afford the cost of living. Students on such courses also can't work to make additional income, as a result of the fact that they do have to be on work placements as part of their course. The National Union of Students Wales's survey supports this concerning statement, revealing that 28 per cent of students in Wales have less than £50 a month to live on; 92 per cent are concerned about their ability to cope financially; 11 per cent are using food banks; and 89 per cent feel that neither the UK Government nor the Welsh Government are doing enough to support them during this crisis. I note your response to Cefin Campbell to the previous question, and I look forward to hearing your statement on the future of the support package, but is there anything that the Government can do to commit to provide additional grants, either directly or through university hardship funds to help them through this difficult period particularly, to make up for the fact that the student finance package is inadequate as a result of inflation, that some students are excluded from the cost-of-living support— 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:47, 12 October 2022

(Translated)

 I am going to have to ask the Member to come to a question. 

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Sorry, okay. 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

(Translated)

As I said earlier, this is a very challenging time for students for the reasons that Sioned Williams outlined. Every university in Wales has a hardship fund to ensure that provision is available for those who are in the most challenging circumstances. The size of those funds does vary from institution to institution. I have asked HEFCW to give me an assurance that what is provided by our universities is adequate, that there is adequate access via the universities to financial support during this difficult time. But for future years—next year onwards—I'll be making a statement in due course about the level of support. 

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru 1:48, 12 October 2022

(Translated)

Thank you, Minister. Student rent particularly has increased by 29 per cent in Wales over the past three years, and now takes up almost 60 per cent of the student support package as an average. As a party, we've been calling for urgent and radical cost-of-living measures, such as rent freezes and prohibiting evictions, because this increase will be disastrous for a number of students, having negative impacts on their mental and physical health, and also on their studies, of course. Will the Government listen to the calls of those, such as Orla Tarn, the president of NUS Wales, who has stated that she is in favour of putting a cap on student rent, as happens in Scotland, calling on the Welsh Government to follow the Scottish Government in supporting Welsh students in the same manner?  

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

(Translated)

I am meeting with the president of NUS Wales in the coming days to discuss that with them, because I heard the evidence given to the committee. As the Member will know, we've looked in detail at what is being provided in Scotland, and it doesn't look on the face of it as generous—. Perhaps, on the face of it, it does seem more generous than it really is. And we're very concerned about what we see happening in Scotland—many people are withdrawing from the private rented sector, which creates more challenges for students and others. But this is one of the things I do intend to discuss with the president of NUS Wales when I meet with them in the coming days.