Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:32 pm on 8 November 2022.
Diolch, Delyth. Well, just to address that last one first, we thought very carefully about whether I should go to COP27, or indeed, the First Minister should go, but I'm actually attending COP15 in Canada—the biodiversity COP—which is a decision-making COP. And given the carbon footprint of going all over the place, and given that this isn't a decision-making COP—it's an implementation COP; we have a team of officials out there working on the implementation side of it, but we thought that the platform was better used at COP15 because we need to develop the 30x30 targets, and it's a decision-making COP. So, it was balanced carefully. We really thought about it, and I did very seriously think about going, but, on balance, we decided—it's Wales in Canada year as well—that the COP15 ministerial attendance was very important. But just to be really clear, we have a team of officials out at COP27 taking part in the implementation talks, which are obviously the very important part of what's going on there. And it's why it was so disappointing that the UK Prime Minister, who actually has a seat at the table, which sadly I do not, was so reluctant to take that leading role, which I think is a very important point.
And, then, in terms of all the other technical things, in terms of the carbon capture, utilisation and storage models, we are taking part in the trials in north Wales—the HyNet trials. There are real issues around how the technology would work in the rest of Wales because there are no suitable storage opportunities. We're looking at a whole series of pieces of work about whether a pipeline—how it would work, but it's likely to be quite expensive, and, unfortunately, some of the heavy industry that needs it is in south Wales. So, we're very much taking part in HyNet, it's called, in north-east Wales, and helping industry there to take part in it.
Our—I don't know what word to use; 'scepticism' is too hard a word—but our worry is that over-reliance on a technology not yet proven on our path to net zero will end up with us not getting there. So, if the technology is proven, then we will, yes, of course, embrace it, and we're working very hard with Valero, Tata Steel, and a number of other very heavy industries along the south coast here to try and understand how that might work for them, and indeed, actually, how the carbon stored might be reutilised, as you said. But that technology has been a long time coming, and isn't there yet—it works at small scale, but there's no at-scale yet. And I'm just a bit worried that an over-reliance on a technology that's not yet there to save us all might not save us all. So I just want to be clear on that.
And then, on hydrogen, it's clear that making hydrogen at scale at the moment requires fossil fuels. But we will be very clear that, although we will allow that to happen in Wales, because we need the hydrogen, we will not be stuck with stranded assets or old technology and we will be sure that anyone who's getting licences to do that is on a path to green hydrogen at speed. And I've had a large number of really interesting discussions with the global heads of various renewable industries about making sure that we have a planning sector that both encourages the hydrogen use, but also does not get stuck as a test bed for old technology and then it moves on to a bigger scale some place else. So, calibrating that is very much part of the strategy. And then, just to reassure you that we are very much working on it, and when we bring the strategy forward, it will very much have been worked on, and then wanting the Senedd's views on where to take it from there.