Questions now from the party spokespeople. And this afternoon, these questions will all be answered by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership. The Conservative spokesperson first of all—Joel James.

Thank you, Llywydd. Deputy Minister, I wanted to pick up, if I may, a few things today in relation to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. According to the draft Bill, one of the overarching objectives is that, and I quote:

'A statutory duty will be placed on certain public bodies to seek consensus or compromise with their recognised trade unions (or where there is no recognised trade union) other representatives of their staff, when setting their well-being objectives'.

Now, as we all know, this works when consensus or compromise can be reached, and I am sure that in many cases it will. But there is no mention whatsoever in the Bill about what happens when consensus or compromise cannot be reached, and this will undoubtedly cause issues. With this in mind, Deputy Minister, I'm eager to know what will happen when consensus and compromise cannot be reached, and what mechanisms will be in place to allow public bodies to overcome trade union or worker representative sign-off when there is disagreement.

Can I thank the Member for his contribution and the work that he has been doing as a member of the Equality and Social Justice Committee in scrutinising this important piece of legislation as it makes its progress through the legislative system in the Senedd? The Member refers to the duty on certain public bodies to work in social partnership when setting their well-being objectives, and he very much picks up on the wording of it around 'consensus' and 'compromise'. We could have just had the phrase in there 'to consult' but, often, 'consult' can be interpreted in different ways—it could just be a tick-box exercise. So, the consensus and compromise is very, very important—that it's done in a meaningful way. And the Member actually said in his question the likelihood is that this will be reached in these circumstances anyway because most public bodies already work in that way. 

You'll be familiar that, as part of the legislation, there will also be the establishment of a social partnership council, and that council will be able to advise Welsh Government, advise bodies, if there are challenges in terms of that part of the legislation, on what could be done to move forward. 

I just want to pick up finally, if I may, on the point that the Member said regarding trade union sign-off. There is no sign-off from any of the partners as part of this process. It is about actually what it says on the tin—working together in social partnership. 

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your answer, but I'm conscious of what I've said, that it's most likely that, in most cases, you are going to get that compromise, but I think, with all the will in the world, you will always still get disagreements that cannot be resolved, and, without a proper mechanism in place, I fear that this Bill could have the potential to grind procurement for public bodies to a halt, and even for them to be held to ransom if unrealistic demands are made. For example, the future generations commissioner has set a precedent for the encouragement of a four-day working week, which trade unions or other worker representatives could ask for, which is, as you no doubt agree, just not achievable for a public body. So, with this in mind, I would like to understand what the Welsh Government's plan is if a trade union has initiated strike action against a public body. If there is a dispute, in my mind, trade unions can quite willingly withhold or withdraw from sign-off unless their conditions were met, which would mean that public bodies would fail to meet their statutory duties. So, with this in mind, Deputy Minister, what is stopping trade unions from using the statutory powers within this Bill as leverage in trade union disputes?

So, I think I should start by saying that the right to withdraw labour and the right to strike is a fundamental human right for workers around the world. But the Member—I don't know whether deliberately or just through misunderstanding—seeks to conflate some of the aspects of the legislation and elements more generally. So, I'll just try and pick that apart in the time that I have this afternoon. The Member talked about trade unions apparently holding public bodies to ransom on procurement. Well, the socially responsible procurement process is conducted by those public bodies. We then have a social partnership council, and a public procurement sub-group, which is made up of equal representation of Government, employers and trade unions to work through any challenges that come and to look to mediate. There is no sign-off or ransom, as the Member puts it. 

And the other element the Member conflates in his questioning is around working in social partnership and industrial relations and industrial disputes. Social partnership is a way of working—working collaboratively and working together. The legislation in Wales does not seek to legislate on any industrial relation matters, and that is distinctly separate from what the legislation sets out to do. 

Finally, Deputy Minister, in terms of the social partnership council, as you mentioned in one of your earlier responses, there is concern that the council will not adequately represent the wide and diverse range of views present when providing evidence and advice to the Welsh Government. For example, social enterprises, non-unionised workers, ethnic minority communities, health and social care workers, to name but a few, will not be represented, and this risks undermining one of the fundamental aspects of the Bill because the very people that the Bill claims to help won't actually have a voice at the table. It's obvious that expanding the council to include such representatives would, indeed, make the council unworkable. But the alternative is that having, as pointed out by CollegesWales, representatives exclusively from the trade unions risks excluding a significant number of workers and could create a two-tier system of worker voice. It also has the potential to become a quagmire of opposing opinions, where the Welsh Government will be put in a position of alienating some groups over others because their opinions do not conform to Welsh Government thinking. Deputy Minister, how are you going to ensure that a greater section of worker voices is represented? How is the Welsh Government going to ensure a fair assessment of those opinions when taking advice from the council? And how are you going to stop the social partnership council from being reduced to an echo chamber of the Welsh Government and an instrument that only says what the Welsh Government wants to hear? Thank you. 

Can I thank the Member for his further questions? I just want to point to one element where people will be surprised that we may agree. It's around the need for diversity of representation as part of the social partnership council, through those bodies that are represented on the body as proposed. You are right that, actually, you can't extend it to everybody, because, as I've said in committee, you'd end up with a conference every time, rather than a council. But on the point of making sure that we have diversity of people, whether that's in terms of their background or protected characteristics, there is a piece of work ongoing now, through our social partnership forum we've established, to look at the operational nature of what the legislation would involve, to make sure that we are working with those bodies to ensure that there is a mechanism to ensure there is that diversity of representation on the council. Again, the Member just misunderstands what the whole point of the council is about, and social partnership. It is not for the Welsh Government to assert our authority over anything or to try and drive our agenda. It's actually recognising that we know, in Wales, that we are stronger by working together as part of a team, using those collective experiences and voices, to shape legislation for the better. I would say that this legislation is significant and landmark, but ultimately it's not about changing legislation; it's about changing lives, and that's what we want to do further along the line. 

Questions now from the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Pensioners in the UK are expected to be around £442 per year worse off from April following a reduced pension rate and a cut in help for energy bills. Given that in January this year over 75 per cent of over-65s surveyed by Age UK were worried by the rising cost-of-living crisis, and, since then, the inflation rate and the cost of energy bills have only continued to skyrocket, what is the Deputy Minister doing to further welfare reform by maximising the use of our devolved competencies to ensure that support is targeted towards older people who need help, especially those who will be facing higher than average energy and mobility costs? Could you also shed some light on whether over-60s are getting more help to access the discretionary assistance fund, bearing in mind answers I had to a written question I submitted earlier this year suggesting that less than 1 per cent of over-60s accessed the fund?   

I thank the Member for his question and his interest in this area. Clearly, there are some challenges involved because of where the boundaries lie between what is devolved and what isn't, but clearly we are committed—myself and my colleague Jane Hutt, and colleagues right across Government—to using all the levers we have at our devolved disposal to make a difference. The Member is right to raise the particular impact of the cost-of-living crisis, which is hitting too many in communities right across the country, but the particular impact it has on perhaps pensioners who will have a fixed income. Through our 'Claim what's yours' campaign, we recognise what you're saying about online access; we want to ensure that we look at ways in which people can access that information and that it's readily available in the places that they may go to get support, and make sure they are accessing what they are entitled to and that the additional support is there. I'm not familiar with the written question you raised about access to the discretionary assistance fund, but my colleague Jane Hutt is sitting here nodding as I answer, and I'm sure that's something we'd be happy to take away and look at to see if there's anything else we can do to ensure that age group are aware that support is there, should they need it, in these very difficult circumstances. 

Diolch. Sorry if it is falling between two Ministers, as it were. Any information would be gratefully received. Thank you very much.

Last month marked Black History Month. A timely report by the Trades Union Congress released that month revealed that racism and discrimination towards black workers is still rife in the UK. The statistics in the report 'Still rigged: racism in the UK labour market' that account for racist incidents in the workplace are shocking. To make matters worse, when racist incidents were reported in the workplace, the TUC found that action taken to prevent harassment was taken in just 29 per cent of cases. It isn't surprising, then, that four in five respondents say they wouldn't or haven't reported racism in the workplace for fear of it not being taken seriously or having a negative impact on their work life. How does the anti-racist action plan that the Welsh Government published this year target this issue? Are the measures within the plan enough to reach the target of an anti-racist Wales by 2030 and truly make our economy an equal playing field?

The Member refers to the anti-racist action plan, which was launched back in June by my colleague the Minister for Social Justice. I'm familiar with the event he refers to that Wales TUC held to mark Black History Month. Nobody should face discrimination or hate in any part of society or any walk of life. People should certainly be safe to be themselves and to not face discrimination within the workplace, particularly within those workplaces where we have more leverage in the public sector here in Wales. Inclusive workplaces and tackling racism in the workplace is a key component of the anti-racist action plan. We've worked very closely with employers and with trade unions as part of that, and we're also undergoing training around inclusive workplaces and what that means—to call it out and to support people. There's a lot more work to be done, but we recognise that working in partnership and using those resources that we know some of our trade union colleagues already have in place, and their support networks to enable people to have somebody to go to for advice and support within those workplaces, will make them more inclusive. It's very much something that we're committed to taking forward to ensure that nobody—nobody—faces discrimination whilst they are at work.