Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, first of all. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. Responding to your statement here in May on justice in Wales, I stated,

'given that senior police officers told me during my visit to the north-west regional organised crime unit that: all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission' regarding this

'was largely ignored in the commission's report',

I asked,

'why do you think that the Thomas commission on justice report only includes a single reference to any cross-border criminality in the context of county lines, and that the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, but no reference to partners across the border, with whom most of the work is actually being done?'

You accused me of 'a head-in-the-sand response', when, instead, ignoring these key issues would represent a dangerous head-buried-in-sand approach—

Mark Isherwood, I am sorry to cut across, but we were all there when you asked these questions and had this response. If you can ask your question of today, please—and you're out of time now, but I'll allow you to ask it.

What, if any, action have you therefore since taken to investigate the serious omissions I identified and gather the necessary missing evidence?

My role isn't to answer for the Thomas commission, or to take up specific issues that are in or not within the Thomas commission. What my role has been—Welsh Government's role—is to consider the totality of the recommendations made by the Thomas commission, to evaluate them and see how those might be pursued.

The issue of the devolution of policing is obviously one that has been taken up, and it is one that's resulted in quite a range of meetings between myself, the Minister for Social Justice, as well, at the police partnership board that has been set up, and a very close collaboration as well with the police and crime commissioners. In doing so, what we seek to do is to have a proper partnership in terms of those areas that are devolved that clearly do relate to policing, which is why we, obviously, want the devolution of policing, the partnership between the four police areas, but, of course, any other areas that overlap in terms of engagement there are equally valid. Now, those organisational matters are obviously matters for the chief constable, but they do get discussed, so I don't think there are grounds there for criticism, because what we are looking at is how the partnership between our responsibilities and policing can actually work collaboratively together. I don't think the points you make on whether they're sustainable or not sustainable really have any real bearing on the importance of actually having that partnership, having that engagement or actually undermining the view that we've taken, but also that the police and crime commissioners hold—all four of them, who have been democratically elected—that there is merit in the development of the devolution of policing.

Without this gaping hole being filled, there's clearly no real basis to go forward on the basis of an only partial report.

But responding to you in May, I detailed evidence showing that the UK Government is actually more aligned with the Welsh Government approach to justice than otherwise and has stated repeatedly that it favours policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation, quoting, for example, the UK Ministry of Justice's 'Prisons Strategy White Paper' to rehabilitate offenders and cut crime; the female offender strategy to divert vulnerable female offenders away from short prison sentences; and the UK Government's turnaround scheme to catch and prevent youth offending earlier than ever to help stop these children and young people from moving on to further, more serious offending.

I also quoted, as you did, the former UK justice Minister, Lord Wolfson, at the October 2021 Legal Wales conference, where he said that being part of an England and Wales justice system made Wales a more attractive place to do business and that,

'We are continuing to work closely with the Welsh Government to deliver justice in Wales, including the joint work on supporting women and young people, and taking forward some of the recommendations of the Thomas Commission'.

What progress has, therefore, been achieved with this in the 13 months since—I appreciate you might be tempted to respond by just commenting on the last couple of months—as we go forward?

Thanks for the question. The discussions that take place and the work that goes on isn’t something that just happened in the last couple of months—it is work of a long, continuous process. One of the reasons it’s part of that long process is because there is a real dysfunction in the England and Wales jurisdiction. I have to say that my view is that the England and Wales jurisdiction is dysfunctional and is not working. That is one of the reasons why we’ve published a paper, 'Delivering Justice for Wales', in order to put those across, not in terms of the issue of who controls justice or whatever, but, basically, how can it be delivered better? And you’d be perfectly valid in asking for details as to how we think that can be delivered better.

Of the work that is going on, much of it is actually borne by my colleague the Minister for Social Justice in terms of women’s issues; in terms of a women’s blueprint; in terms of the youth justice work that is going on; in terms of the issues over the women’s residence and the prison issues that arise. Those are things that have been going on for many, many months and have also been ones that have engaged partnership between the Ministry of Justice and the Welsh Government and between all the other agencies and bodies that have a direct interest within that. And I think those have been very effective and very successful, but they are only part of the picture.

There was a very interesting publication that’s just come from Cardiff University on criminal justice—The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge—which really begins to highlight the dysfunction in our justice system: the fact that we have no proper alignment between all the devolved functions and a very centralised Ministry of Justice, where Wales only plays a very peripheral part.

You raised issues also with regard to policing. I mean, let’s be honest about it in terms of the issues around crime and police operations: when the Conservative Government came into power in 2010, you cut 22,000 police officers and you’re now talking about appointing 15,000, to some extent rectifying that disastrous damage that was actually done to policing and community safety.

So, we work as a partnership; we work across board; we seek whatever opportunities there are for joint working and there are a number of blueprints and projects that are jointly under way. But they are really on the surface of what is happening. There is a need for a far deeper consideration of justice and I do not accept your view, and I don’t think any logical, evidential analysis of the England and Wales jurisdiction can say that it is serving Wales well. That was a view that was found by the Thomas commission as well, but I think it’s been justified in significant other evidence since then.

Without the evidence I referred to, we can't tell whether it is working any better or any worse than it would if devolved. The suggestions might be to the contrary in the absence of such evidence. And of course, those police officers, the cuts were reversed, and we're now well on the road to deliver on 20,000 new police officers within the three-year target.

But responding to you in May, I noted, for example, that Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care, and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world, and asked,

'Is it therefore not the case that such a difference in delivery within what is a shared criminal justice system shows why the calls for devolution of criminal justice should not be answered?'

I also noted that, in consequence of the UK Government's female offenders strategy, the Minister for Social Justice here had written to Members, stating that she'd been working closely with the UK Ministry of Justice, and announcing that one of these centres would be near, and asked,

'How will this help vulnerable women offenders in north, mid and west Wales to access the services they need closer to home?'

Rather than answer this, you instead stated that it was thanks to the Minister for Social Justice that

'we actually have the women's residential centre...coming to fruition.'

Plans for this centre were subsequently turned down by Swansea Council. So, what is the current state of play, where women prisoners from England can now be released from Welsh prisons for rehabilitation in centres in England, but women prisoners in Wales cannot be released to equivalent centres in Wales?

Well, I think you've just put a very good case for the devolution of justice, because that's exactly one of the reasons why we have been doing that, why we work in partnership where we can, but you need a proper, consistent and organised devolution of responsibilities to enable us to get rid of that jagged edge within the criminal justice system. You talk about the numbers of people that are in care, and you talk about the numbers in prison, and so on. What is very clear from the data is that Wales has one of the highest numbers of women that are actually in prison. We also have almost the highest level of, I think, people from ethnic backgrounds actually in prison—some of the highest figures in Europe. They are all part of the non-devolved justice system, and they're all part of the evidential base as to why the devolution of justice actually is necessary.

You referred again to the policing figure, et cetera. Well, you've been in power since 2010; it's taken you 12 years to begin to repair the damage that has been done in terms of the massive cuts to policing that actually occurred.

With regard to the turning down of the planning application in respect of the women's centre in Swansea, of course, that is a matter for the Ministry of Justice to now consider how it intends to respond to that. But that, again, is a responsibility of the Ministry of Justice.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson now, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm glad, Counsel General, that you've referred to the recent publication, The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge, by Dr Rob Jones and Professor Richard Wyn Jones, and I would heartily recommend it as a good read to the Conservative spokesperson—it might even help open his eyes somewhat to the reality of the situation. Because you're absolutely right in saying that—. It really outlines how the Welsh criminal justice system is unique, and, while our nation has its own devolved Government and Parliament, of course, there is no Welsh equivalent of the Scottish or Northern Irish justice systems. Rather, the writ of England and Wales criminal justice institutions continues to run. Yet the extensive responsibilities of Wales's devolved institutions ensure that they necessarily play a significant role in criminal justice, and, as a result, the Welsh criminal justice system operates across this jagged edge of devolved and reserved powers of responsibilities.

So, what discussions, then, have you had to ensure that we create a Welsh justice system, to improve what are some of the worst criminal justice outcomes in the whole of western Europe? And also, will you discuss with your Labour colleagues in London to ensure that any potential future UK Labour Government will actually devolve justice, the police and prisons to Wales?

Thank you for the question and thank you for the comments. I certainly agree with you that the content of the publication from Cardiff University contains some really significant information within it. And of course, it raises that point: one of our main concerns—I meant to mention this with the last question—is the disaggregation of data. We do need that evidence base, we do need that data. Unless we actually have that data disaggregated so we know how it applies to Wales, it becomes very difficult to actually determine policy, to evaluate precisely what is happening, why it is happening, and how we actually change it. That is why we published in May 'Delivering Justice for Wales', and we've referred to that, and it's been mentioned consistently.

I've been raising these issues now in all the discussions that I've had with counterparts at UK Government level, and we've done it in a number of ways. Firstly, we will continue working, we will continue co-operating in all areas where we can work collectively to improve the justice system. There are a number of projects like that that are under way. Secondly, we'll identify additional projects that we can work with. There are some very interesting ones that are under way in terms of the establishment of a domestic abuse law centre up in north Wales; we're awaiting a decision on funding and we're hopeful that will happen. We might look at that in terms of a model as part of a broader policy in respect of developing law centres and access to justice.

But also, what we'll also do is actually start preparing for the delivery of justice, particularly in those areas where the connectivity between devolved responsibilities is so blatant. I would say there is no rational argument for not devolving justice in the area of probation and in the area of youth justice. Even if we were to start there. And, of course, the debate over justice policy and these issues is partly about getting it out of a mindset that this is somehow about who controls something, as opposed to how you can actually deliver justice better. And my view, and the reason I work so closely with the Minister for Social Justice, and vice versa, on these, is that a key part of the justice system is social justice, and the combining of those two makes it absolutely essential that, certainly in those areas, there is devolution of justice, and in the longer term, there's an end to the dysfunction of the very centralised judicial system for England and Wales, which also has significant adverse impacts in the way it is delivered in England as well. 

Thank you for that. You've listed engagement with the UK Government. I'm still waiting for something in relation to your own UK Labour Party; maybe you could expand a little bit in a moment.

I wanted to ask you about something else as well, because the UK Government has announced that its Bill of Rights Bill is to return to the Westminster Parliament in the coming weeks. And we know that that will dismantle the Human Rights Act 1998 that made human rights part of domestic law available to everyone in the UK. So, would the Counsel General agree that human rights are actually one of the cornerstones of devolution, and that the Welsh Government has to act to protect human rights in Wales by ensuring, for example, that we get a human rights Bill for Wales?

Well, firstly, you are absolutely right in terms of the bill of rights, and, of course, 10 December is Human Rights Day, and I hope there will be a substantial debate in this Chamber. At one stage, it looked as though there might be a debate on Human Rights Day that didn't need to have reference to the bill of rights. We were told it was shelved. Unfortunately, one of the main instigators of it has returned, and it appears it is back on the agenda again. 

It is within the portfolio of Lord Bellamy, who I will be meeting with in Cardiff in December. So, there'll be an opportunity to discuss there. What we don't know is precisely what the format of this Bill might be, whether it's going to be a complete return of the existing Bill. Now, that seems to me to be something that's very difficult, since once it was shelved, there were so many UK Government Ministers and Members of Parliament who basically were saying, 'Well, it's been shelved, the thing is an absolute mess, so it can't go on as it is; that's why we've shelved it.' Well, it's now coming back and they've obviously got to do something to resolve the fact that it is, in its current form, an absolute mess.

But it is something that is essentially an undermining of human rights. It actually takes away the rights from individuals. So much for the Brexit argument of taking back control; it actually disempowers individual citizens within the UK. 

In terms of a Welsh Bill, and what we can do within Wales, that is something that we're looking at very, very closely. What the options might be as to how we might further strengthen the commitment to human rights that we have, either within our legislation, within our policy, and whether that means by means of a legislative format or whatever, I don't know. But it is a matter that's being discussed at the human rights advisory group that has been set up, in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice, which I chaired the other day. So, this is very much on the radar and I hope this debate continues and we keep monitoring what is happening. 

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.