4. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to address the increasing demand for social housing in Mid and West Wales? OQ58724

Well, Llywydd, thank you to Cefin Campbell for the question. We are committed to delivering 20,000 new low-carbon homes for rent in the social sector and we've allocated record levels of funding, with £300 million allocated this year. This includes a 40 per cent increase in funding in Mid and West Wales. 

Thank you very much. As you know, almost 90,000 households in Wales are on the waiting list for social housing at the moment. This has increased from 65,000 homes in 2018, and charities expect that number to increase further. And trends across Mid and West Wales are very concerning indeed, with the number of households on waiting lists in 2022 up by almost 50 per cent in Pembrokeshire and over 100 per cent in Powys, as compared to the figures of four years ago. However, I'm pleased to say that Carmarthenshire, under the leadership of Plaid Cymru, has shown a different pattern, with a reduction of some 12 per cent in the number of households waiting for social housing at the moment. What assessment has the Welsh Government made, therefore, of how Carmarthenshire County Council has succeeded in delivering this? Will the First Minister commit to looking into what lessons can be learned from the good practice in Carmarthenshire in other local authority areas in Wales?

I thank Cefin Campbell for that supplementary question. I have had one opportunity to discuss with civil servants who have looked at the experience in Carmarthenshire, because it does stand out, doesn't it? When you see what's happened in Carmarthenshire in the context of south-west Wales, the record in Carmarthenshire is different to that of other local authorities. What officials have suggested to me, just in that initial conversation, is that Carmarthenshire has been working in this field over the long term. They have purchased homes when homes come on to the market for sale, and they have a development programme that is deeper in breadth than that of other local authorities in the region. So, it is possible that there are lessons to be learned from the experience of Carmarthenshire.

Carmarthenshire has also collaborated with us as a Government, and Carmarthenshire was one of the original local authorities where we had lifted the right to buy social housing, and that has helped in Carmarthenshire in the longer term as compared to other local authorities. And they've worked with us to use the funding that we have provided to bring empty homes back into use for rental purposes.

So, I think it is important to look into the experiences in Carmarthenshire to see whether there is something different that the council is doing there, but also to place that in the context of the effort that we are making to help, to help to invest with local authorities as a whole and with other groups who do important work in the field.

First Minister, a recent freedom of information request showed that, in Powys, there are around 4,500 households waiting for social housing. I'm sure you'll agree with me that that's extremely worrying. I'm sure those individuals and those people on that waiting list, like I do, want to know today what you and your Government are doing to fix this problem, because, as you said earlier, funding is coming forward, but it's not achieving the results you want. So, instead of chasing headlines, First Minister, do you think removing things like the phosphate regulations imposed by Natural Resources Wales would go some way to unblocking the planning system?

Well, I certainly don't think that allowing greater pollution of rivers in Powys would be something that would be supported by the Member's constituents, and let us be very clear that when he says 'lifting the phosphate regulations', that is exactly what he means—it is exactly what he means—he cannot mean anything else. If you allow housing developments to take place knowing—knowing—that that will lead to greater pollution of watercourses and rivers, then that will be the impact of doing what the Member proposes.

Now, fortunately, most people who work in this area, including organisations in Powys, have a more constructive attitude to solving the dilemma that we face. Of course we need to be able to build houses in Powys and other parts of Wales; that means we have to find a sustainable solution that building those houses does not have guaranteed into them additional pollution impact on rivers that are already—already—over-polluted. A series of contributions will be needed to that: there will be a need for a contribution from the regulator; there will be a need for a contribution of Dŵr Cymru; there will be in need for a contribution from farming interests; and there will be a need for a contribution from housing developers who have techniques that they can use and are willing to use that would mean that, when you build new houses, it does not lead—

I'm really sorry, First Minister, but there are many backbenchers from at least two parties who are seeking to contribute in your place on this debate. I'd rather hear you than them—all of them. All of them. First Minister.

Llywydd, thank you. I was simply trying to explain to the Member that the problem he identifies is a real one, but the solution that he proposes only makes another problem, a very serious problem, worse. We will not solve the problem in that way. The only way we will solve it is by collecting together the contribution of many different agencies and organisations. That includes house builders. I think they recognise that. There are techniques that they can develop that would mean that house building can take place without the damage that would be done by the simplistic solution that James Evans offered us, which would undoubtedly lead to additional pollution.