Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Gareth Davies. 

I'm going to direct my spokesperson's questions this time towards my home area of Rhyl and the north Denbighshire community hospital up in that patch, or the lack of a north Denbighshire community hospital for that matter on the Royal Alexandra site. For 10 years now, this Welsh Labour Government, in the shadow of Nye Bevan, is depriving local people on the Denbighshire coast of a facility that will cater for many people's health problems, in a way that will take the emphasis off Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and reduce waiting times. 

Now, back in 2012, this was costed as a £22 million project, doubling to £44 million in 2017. Who knows what the cost of it would be in the current financial climate? So, will the Minister disclose today whether, if this rudderless Welsh Government had acted a decade ago, people in Rhyl, Prestatyn and north Denbighshire would now have a local health facility that would have been affordable?

Well, I wasn't even in the Senedd 10 years ago, so I can't tell you, but what I can tell you is that making—. You've got to take into consideration that a £22 million bill is very different from what the bill would be today, which is £80 million—is it £80 million, around £80 million; £74 million or so—which is a significant difference. And let's remember that this is when the capital budget is not increasing. So, that is a problem for us, and we can't do much about that capital unless we get more money from the UK Government. And I know what you're going to say; you're going to say 'Yes, take responsibility.' I will take responsibility if—[Interruption.] I do take responsibility, but if I don't have the capital budget, how on earth am I supposed to address those issues that you as Tories want me to address? 

Come off it.

You speak to your bosses up in London, tell them to give me more capital and I'll put my thinking cap on in terms of what we can do in terms of north Wales. 

Well, I don't accept that answer really, health Minister, as this has been devolved as your Government's responsibility for nearly a quarter of a decade. And it's interesting you say that, as, back in 2018, 2019, when you were hopelessly scraping around for votes, your predecessor, Vaughan Gething, and my predecessor, Labour's Ann Jones, posted a social media video—[Interruption.]

No point of order. Let's carry on with the question please. 

As it should be. Labour's Ann Jones posted a social media video in this very Senedd saying that the Welsh Government would deliver on the north Denbighshire community hospital, and that Labour was working for the people of the Vale of Clwyd. Now, this video has been conveniently deleted and confined to the bowels of history, but I know what I've seen, Minister, and I have a good memory, unfortunately for you. So, will you now admit that you've failed my constituents in Denbighshire, and that you've broken trust with them in believing that your party was working for local residents?

So, all of a sudden, I am responsible for the social media content of everybody within the Labour group. I'm sorry, guys, I'm not taking it. I've got enough responsibility on my hands as it is. Ann was not in Government, and I think you've got to understand that. If that's the case, I'm going to hold you responsible for what Liz Truss said. You want to do that? I'll hold you to it. 

Can I just make the point that Ann Jones is not here to defend herself? She is no longer a Member of this Senedd at this point. I suspect if she was, she'd have something to say at this point. But I'll ask you to ask your third question. 

Well, as a constituency Member who's very interested in this matter, I think it's only dutiful for me, as the Member for that constituency, to highlight the track record of this situation—[Interruption.]

Carry on with your next question; you're already a quarter of a way into it. 

Okay. You may say that, Minister, but I had a meeting with the chair and directors of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board just yesterday, and they categorically told me that they've done all they can on their side of the bargain in terms of submitting their business case to you, planning procedures and anything else that's pertinent to their remit. So, they are waiting for you, Minister. People in Rhyl, Prestatyn and north Denbighshire have been promised this for a decade, without a spade going in the ground or any tangible evidence that this Welsh Government is doing anything. People in my constituency have to travel as far as Colwyn Bay, Llandudno and even Bangor and Holywell at times to receive step-down treatment, and not all people have access to private vehicles, relying on an equally failing public transport system under this Labour Government. So, will you meet with the health board at the earliest convenience and thrash these problems out to give local people the assurances that this Government is on people's side? And if you can't guarantee that, will you now admit that you've failed the people of the Vale of Clwyd?

I don't know—. It's true I did question before I walked in here why I'm answering questions from a spokesperson who's a spokesperson on care on issues that are related to health. I think that is something that perhaps the Presiding Officer might want to look at.

No, the Presiding Officer doesn't want to comment on that. It is a matter for the Conservative group to decide how they want to position their spokespeople questions and whether they want to focus on a particular area of Wales.

A point of order, Presiding Officer.

No point of order. You're trying your best, Huw Irranca-Davies, but I'm going to ask the Minister to respond to the question.

Okay, let's carry on. Let's just carry on. We can take this up afterwards. We can take it up afterwards. Listen, let me tell you—[Interruption.]

The lot of you, grow up. Grow some backbone.

Can we have some order, please? Can we have some order?

Had enough. Had enough.

Do you want to listen to the response from the Minister?

Well, she hasn't—

No, just sit down and listen to the response.

If she's got the decency to respond, then, come on, let's have it. Let's have it. Come on.

Now, come on. 

Come on. I'm tired of this.

Can I have some quiet, please?

Constant shifting of blame all the time.

I'm sure we want to—. I think some people are leaving at this point. I'm going to ask the Minister to respond to the question, and I'll ask all Members to be quiet in order to listen.

Okay, let's just—. Shall we try and—[Interruption.]

There's no point of order.

Can we just try and move on? I'm happy to move on.

There is no answer to this question. I'm not asking the Minister to respond to the question, because things have gone out of order. You had your chance, Gareth Davies. I'll ask you if you want to leave quietly now, if you want.

I will leave, and it's an affront to democracy. It's an affront to democracy.

It's not. You've asked all your questions; it's in no way an affront to democracy. 

I have, and there's no answer. There's no answer, so I will leave.

I am asking you to leave at this point.

Diolch yn fawr. 

You will apologise to the Chair before you are allowed to re-enter this Chamber, and I will expect that apology soon. I am moving on now to question 3, Sarah Murphy. [Interruption.] I'll take a point of order at the end. Sarah Murphy to ask the question, please.

Presiding Officer, there does need to be a point of order.

No. Alun Davies, sit down now, please. I can accept—

When Members are afraid to sit in this Chamber—

Look, I am taking—. I'm asking you to sit down, right. I will take a point of order at the end of these questions. Sarah Murphy, question 3. Please ask the question, and I'm sure the Minister will respond.

Llywydd, you've forgotten Rhun.

Ah, right. Sarah Murphy, you've got some time. 

Rhun ap Iorwerth, spokesperson's questions.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Can the Minister explain why she's refusing to engage in pay negotiations with the Royal College of Nursing?

I'm not refusing to engage. In fact—

Yes, you are.

No. I'll answer the question if you'll let me. I'm not refusing to engage, I've got a meeting scheduled for the end of this month with all of the trade unions and they all want to talk about pay. So, I don't have a problem with that and I don't know where you've got that information from.

The Minister knows that's not pay negotiations. She also said last week that she was meeting regularly with the Royal College of Nursing—that's not pay negotiations. The meeting that she has just referred to now is not pay negotiations. The last letter, I believe, that the Royal College of Nursing wrote to the Minister asking for pay negotiations was on 25 October. They still have not received a response to the letter that they sent to the Minister on 25 October.

I was struck with what the First Minister said yesterday. He said,

'all strike action ends in the end in negotiation', but, surely, it's better to do the negotiation in a timely manner. Having failed to sit down to negotiate to try to avoid a ballot, will Government now give nurses and the nursing profession the respect they deserve by sitting down with them to negotiate in a bid to avert strike action, which nobody wants, least of all the nurses themselves? 

Well, I can tell you nobody wants it less than me. I'm very worried about nurses going on strike in the middle of a very difficult winter. I understand their position, and I'm in a situation where I am trying to engage with trade unions. So, I met with the Royal College of Midwives this morning and pay came up, obviously, as an issue. I also had meetings with Unite representatives on Monday. Again, there's an understanding there. 

That was not my question. I was asking about pay negotiations. 

I think it may be you, Sarah Murphy.

Question 3, Sarah Murphy.