Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:40 pm on 22 November 2022.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:40, 22 November 2022

(Translated)

Questions now from party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Leader of the house, one can't not be really upset by reading the reports in The Sunday Times about the activities of police officers in the Gwent force, and in particular in a week when we're highlighting domestic violence and in particular violence against women. It is traumatic, to say the least, that the accusations, shall we say, and the revelations within that article highlight such widespread abuse within the Gwent force. This morning, the daughter of the officer named in the report said that her and her mother are petrified of what they might do to them because they came forward with these messages that they found on her late father's phone. Do you have confidence that the Gwent police force can protect victims of domestic violence when the wife and daughter of someone who's been involved in domestic violence say such statements—that they are petrified of what they might do to them?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 1:41, 22 November 2022

I think the most recent allegations in last Sunday's The Sunday Times report are extremely worrying. As a Government, and I'm sure everybody in this Chamber, we stand against corruption, misogyny, racism and homophobia in all forms. I haven't seen the comments made by the family as yet. As you know, policing is not devolved to Wales; it is a matter for the UK Government, it's a responsibility for the UK Government, but of course we work very closely with our policing partners here in Wales. I know, as a Government, certainly, the Minister for Social Justice has taken these reports very seriously and I'm sure, following on from the comments that you've referred to by the family, will want further reassurance. She has sought reassurance from both the chief constable and the Gwent police and crime commissioner and has met with both of them to discuss the allegations and has been reassured that Gwent Police are taking these allegations very seriously.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:42, 22 November 2022

I can say it, leader of the house: I have no confidence in the senior leadership of the Gwent force, whether that be at officer level or whether that be at the police and crime commissioner level. These revelations are horrendous, to say the least. I commend the activities of the police force in alerting people in the area that 33 women a week face domestic violence for fear of their life or injury, but how on earth, with such accusations that have been put forward—real accusations that say exactly how it is—that people are petrified to go to individuals to seek help, can those 33 women, let alone the rest of the community in the Gwent area, seek that assurance? So, I have said I have no confidence in the ability of the senior management at Gwent Police to rectify the situation. I asked you in the first question do you have confidence.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 1:43, 22 November 2022

We do have confidence. As I say, the Minister for Social Justice has met with both the chief constable and the PCC to discuss the concerns. As far as I know, she hasn't had a further meeting. You mentioned comments that the family had come forward with. It's really important that, obviously, people who do want to come forward with their concerns, if they have been a victim of any crime, do have confidence in the police force, and that's why it's so important that these allegations were dealt with immediately, which was certainly the case. I'm aware, for instance, the ex-Crown Prosecution Service head, Nazir Afzal, has called for a national inquiry on this issue. I know it's something that the Minister for Social Justice is, obviously, taking forward with Gwent Police, and I'm sure she will seek a further meeting in relation to the comments you referred to that have been made today by the family.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:44, 22 November 2022

Has the Government formed a view on such an inquiry here in Wales? I know the economy Minister last week said that the Government was in the process of forming a view at his press conference. But, if you today, for example, live in the Gwent area and you go to the political control's website—i.e. the police and crime commissioner's website—there is no mention at all of what action is being taken to address these complaints. You can find a video that talks of ChuChu TV Police collecting hens that are causing problems in the area, but you can't find anything out about these accusations that have been levelled against Gwent Police force. I go back to my point: this is about confidence and addressing some of the most serious accusations that could possibly be levelled at a police force, and its capability to deal with the most vulnerable in our society. Do you, like me, agree that the police and crime commissioner should look in the mirror and ask is he the best person to sort this problem out in the Gwent Police force area?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 1:45, 22 November 2022

Your reference to the website, I think, is incredibly concerning, and obviously the Minister for Social Justice is in her place, and I will ask her to make some specific enquiries in relation to that. Around the view of whether a national inquiry is needed, obviously policing is a reserved matter for the UK Government, and it's really for them to decide, if they think an inquiry should take place. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:46, 22 November 2022

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. The Royal College of Nursing has paused the formal announcement of strike action in Scotland, because the Scottish Government has reopened pay negotiations. Why are you, so far, refusing to do the same? Last week, the First Minister suggested it would be wrong to talk to the RCN while other unions are also balloting, so can we expect that, when the ballot results for those five other health unions are announced in the next two weeks, you will reopen negotiations then? The First Minister asked us in Plaid Cymru where the money could come from for an enhanced pay offer this year. Well, can I suggest two potential sources? One is the current spending that is unallocated, and the latest published figure for that, in June, was £152 million; the other is the reserve, which stood at £92 million. Can you perhaps update us on where those figures are now, and why they can't be used as a source of funding for a revised pay offer?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 1:47, 22 November 2022

I'll pick up your latter point about unallocated funding and reserves. I'm sure the leader of Plaid Cymru is very well aware of the financial position the UK Government is in. You heard me, in my earlier answers around the autumn statement, saying the very real gap that is still there—. Inflation is running at 11.1 per cent—11.1 per cent. Our budget is nowhere near to being able to cope with that figure.

In relation to your specific question around the RCN, it's not just the RCN that has balloted; it's not just other health unions that have balloted. We know there are postal workers on strike, we know there are rail workers, again, on strike, barristers are on strike, I think university lecturers—. It is right across our public sector and, unfortunately, our current financial settlement falls short by a huge amount of what really is needed to meet the very significant challenges that are faced by our public services and workers across Wales.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:48, 22 November 2022

I'd be grateful if you could address the specific question: whether you have money in the Welsh reserve, and whether you have unallocated spending available to you.

Now, Keir Starmer says he wants the NHS to rely less on overseas doctors and nurses and wants to break Britain's immigration dependency. Does this kind of rhetoric concern you? When the Tory peer Dido Harding suggested, last year, ending NHS reliance on overseas staff, Eluned Morgan said this: 

'We should be celebrating these people who’ve helped us through the pandemic, rather than looking like we want to shut the door on these people who’ve really stepped up at our time of need.'

So, does the Welsh Government only criticise inflammatory dog-whistle politics when it's a Conservative to blame? And isn't the real dependency in the NHS that on agency staff spending, which rose to £133 million last year for nurses alone, which is effectively privatisation by the back door? Setting a ceiling on agency staff spend this winter would give you another means of giving NHS staff, wherever they're from, the decent pay rise they deserve.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 1:49, 22 November 2022

I don't have the figures to hand that you ask me for around reserves and unallocated—. But all I can assure you is there's going to be very little left in reserves or unallocated funding by the end of this financial year, because of the gaps that we have in our settlement from the UK Government.

I haven't seen Keir Starmer's either article or statement. However, what I will say is: as an NHS here in Wales, we certainly do rely on people from overseas to support not just our health service, but also social care. And a lot of the real problems that we have in social care now are because so many—and you can take this back to leaving the European Union—of our social care staff left the country. Many of them were EU nationals, and others. I know in my own constituency, in Wrexham, we have a significant number of Filipinos who support us in our social care sector. So, we do rely on people from overseas to help support our public services—and in other areas. You only have to look within the agricultural sector. I know our farmers, again, rely on migrant workers.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:50, 22 November 2022

If so, why is Keir Starmer talking about making Brexit work rather than taking us back into the single market?

Now, if we can turn to Qatar, you will have seen the reports that Welsh fans, including former Wales captain, Laura McAllister, were refused entry into the stadium last night for wearing rainbow hats and T-shirts. You will also have read FIFAs refusal to rule out a sporting sanction for players wearing a One Love armband. Is it not homophobia that FIFA should be showing the red card to, and it shouldn't be up to players to be doing this for them? Do you think there's an opportunity around the Wales versus England game to send a powerful message, possibly involving officials of the two associations, but also the Minister for Economy wearing the One Love armband or another rainbow symbol, not only in the stadium but also in official meetings, as the representative of everyone in Wales and also of our universal values of equality without exception, to which the whole Welsh nation and the Welsh team subscribe?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 1:51, 22 November 2022

Absolutely. It was an outrageous last-minute u-turn by FIFA. It was a very different proposition to what they had said they would do. I think the initial one was that they would fine the football association, and I think certainly the European football associations that had signed up to that sort of accepted that, if you like. Sporting sanctions are very, very different, aren't they? If Gareth Bale had been booked and then he was booked again, he wouldn't have been on the pitch to take the penalty, for instance, so you can see the impact it would have had. But, FIFA, it was just absolutely outrageous. It would have been such a simple but powerful statement, I think. And you're quite right, we saw one of our own ambassadors, Laura McAllister, being asked to take off her hat. I know somebody in Qatar last night who was asked to take their rainbow laces out of their trainers. It's completely and utterly unacceptable, and I know we have been in dialogue with the embassy in Doha, trying to seek some urgent clarification that rainbow bucket hats, laces or T-shirts are not banned from stadia, and I very much hope we won't see a repeat of that. I absolutely take on board what you're saying about the Wales-England match next week and how we can make that powerful statement that, for us, this is a really, really important matter. I just think FIFA missed such an opportunity and they've caused so much hurt and distress to so many people.