Item 8 is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on fire service training and capacity to broaden the role. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Hannah Blythyn.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Our fire and rescue services have much to be proud of. In particular, they've contributed greatly to a significant and sustained fall in incidence of fire. 

There are now less than half as many fires as there were in 2005, and residential fires, which account for most fire deaths and injuries, are at or close to an all-time low. Whilst this has inevitably reduced the emergency response workload for firefighters in this respect, firefighters still need to be able to respond to any fire or other incident at any time, and a major emergency can still require all available resources across a wide area. So, while there have been some modest reductions in firefighter numbers over the past 10 to 15 years, they are nowhere near as great as the reduction in the number of fires. This, though, creates clear potential for the service to do more, and, in particular, to support our NHS.  Firefighters already have many of the skills and resources needed for this, and there is strong evidence that this would secure both improved health outcomes and significant savings. In Mid and West Wales, for instance, firefighters from over 20 stations routinely respond to medical incidents in support of the ambulance service. They have saved the lives of hundreds of patients and improved the outcomes for many more.  

The long-term aim has been and remains to realise this potential. In March 2021, I made a joint statement with the then Minister for Health and Social Services setting out this vision and describing a broader role for the fire and rescue services. It had three main elements: emergency medical response to cases where speed is critical to survival, such as cardiac arrest; responding to uninjured fallers, who are not a top priority for the ambulance service but whose condition can quickly deteriorate; and preventing falls and other accidents in the home.

To give me assurance that this could be safely realised, our chief fire and rescue adviser, Dan Stephens, undertook a review in late 2021 of the scope that the service has to take on a broader role. His review concluded that such capability existed, but that changes to working practices were needed to realise it safely. In particular, much of the capacity arose during the whole-time night shift, when firefighters are rarely involved in emergency response and are permitted to rest or sleep if they are not, whilst evidence shows that most medical emergencies occur during the day.

More immediately troubling was that, during this review, the chief fire and rescue adviser found evidence that changes were needed anyway, as firefighters were not spending enough time undertaking activities to reduce the likelihood of fire or in training to ensure their skills were fully maintained. Any shortcomings in training are particularly concerning. Firefighting is a highly complex profession, requiring mastery of a wide range of processes, tactics and equipment, and full understanding of the hazards present at a fire or other incident. If firefighters are not supported to be appropriately trained, they cannot work safely, which jeopardises their own safety and those they are called upon to protect. And as is the case that, naturally, skills will deteriorate if not used regularly, the decline in the incidence of fire reinforces the need for regular, high-quality training.

As a consequence, the chief fire and rescue adviser undertook a further detailed review of firefighter training, which was published last month. This found several potentially serious issues, such as a lack of access to realistic training facilities and undue reliance on low-ranking officers—through no fault of their own—who may have no background in training. Most concerning, the chief fire and rescue adviser made an interim recommendation last March that our three fire and rescue services should urgently establish how much training time is needed, yet none of them has made a serious attempt to do so. I therefore wrote to the chairs of the fire and rescue authorities on 6 October, urging them to accept and act on these recommendations without delay. I was pleased that the north Wales fire and rescue authority did so and set out in their detailed response a comprehensive programme to identify and address any shortcomings. I would urge this example to be followed by the others.

There are three basic reasons why action is needed. Firstly, firefighting has become much more complex in recent years due to advances in technology, expansions of the service's role—for instance, to include floods and road accidents—and changes to building materials and contents. Yet the service's working practices and available training time are largely unchanged since the 1970s. Secondly, there are particular concerns around retained or on-call firefighters, who make up most of the workforce and cover the great majority of Wales. They only have access to two or three hours training per week—a small fraction of their whole-time colleagues—yet they must maintain the same skills to the same level. That risks asking too much of these hugely dedicated crews. There are wider and long-term issues around the sustainability of the retained duty system, and we will work in partnership with employers and trade unions to address this. But the problems around training are an immediate concern.

Thirdly, and most importantly, these are not just technical or hypothetical risks; they place firefighters and the public in obvious danger. Training deficiencies have been implicated in almost all firefighter fatalities in the UK for the past 25 years, and in the tragic loss of life at Grenfell Tower and elsewhere. I am not prepared to wait for tragedy to trigger action here. Whilst we remain committed to a broader role for firefighters, we cannot ask firefighters to take on additional responsibilities while there are concerns about the safety of existing practices and training. We will return to that objective once we have full assurance around these issues. We now expect the employers to fully address these issues robustly and urgently, something that I am sure Members would agree with. To fail to do so would not be the actions of a responsible employer. The Welsh Government is clear that action is needed on firefighter training, and we will take appropriate action to ensure that happens.

Ensuring the safety of the workforce is among the most important duties of any employer, and a key component of social partnership. That is especially so for firefighting, which is inherently dangerous and which also involves direct protection of the public. Therefore, it is my intention to establish a social partnership forum for fire and rescue services, which will involve both employers and trade unions in tackling these and other issues collaboratively, and will meet for the first time early next year. In the shorter term, the very real concerns around training need to be addressed, but the forum will provide us with a platform in the longer term to work together to support and sustain our fire and rescue services and those who provide them.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today, and, if I may, I'd like to pick up on a few points. Firstly, the basis of your proposals is that firefighters are no longer dealing with so many fires and therefore have a greater capacity to help with medical emergencies, but I feel that you have failed to recognise that the drop in the number of fires is due to firefighters doing a very good job, not only in educating people to assess risks, but in helping people to implement greater fire protection. And you have made no mention of how you'll maintain this if you broaden the role of firefighters to include emergency medical call-out. 

Moreover, you are saying that the findings of the thematic review, published last month, indicate that there is current deficiency of training and that this is due to the heavy reliance on the discretion shown by junior officers when they implement the carrying out of training protocols. But where is the evidence that, in Wales, firefighters have had substantially insufficient training? The report you refer to even says, on points 93 and 94, that, by its very nature, assessing training competency is difficult to robustly assess in isolation, and, in practice, to actually facilitate a meaningful assessment of each individual firefighter across several competency areas would require an enormous amount of time.

So, I would argue, Deputy Minister, that is an unfair statement for you to say that training is in such a dire state. You may also say, Deputy Minister, that the current working practices of firefighters are no longer suitable for the requirements of this training, because of the complex operational needs of the fire service when dealing with the wide range and varying types of incidents it faces. But the point is undermined, because you can't specify how much time is required to undertake this training, because only one out of the three fire services in Wales have actually completed unconstrained analysis of the amount of time firefighters need to maintain all core and additional competency requirements. And the report states, with no reasoning whatsoever, that it does not believe that this analysis would stand up to review.

So, what you're implying, Deputy Minister, is that this Government believes that junior officers in our fire service are incapable of making correct training decisions, which I believe is simply the opinion of the chief fire and rescue adviser, without, from what I can see, any concrete evidence that firefighters are currently inadequately trained for the complexities of roles that they face, again without any assessment of the training, and, finally, that firefighters are asleep on the job during night shifts when they don't have emergency call-outs, and therefore they ultimately provide poor value for money.

And your solution to this is to have a social partnership forum. If the situation is as bad as you make out in your statement, I cannot envisage how having a social partnership forum is going to actually change anything in any reasonable amount of time. With this in mind, Deputy Minister, and given that this Welsh Government will likely have to renegotiate with trade unions regarding changes in working practices, how long do you estimate it will take before your objectives are achieved? Do you expect the FBU to ballot members about these changes, or do you think that the Fire Brigades Union will accept your recommendations that working patterns need to change?

Finally, given that the FBU announced a consultative ballot on 15 November, which has resulted in a 78 per cent turnout, and a 79 per cent member vote to reject the 5 per cent pay increase that was on offer, which will now almost certainly lead to strike action, what consideration have you given to address your proposed changes in shift patterns, alongside your ambition of broadening the role of firefighters to deal with medical calls, with pay negotiations that are now very likely to take place? Thank you.

Llywydd, I'll do my best to unravel that contribution from Joel James there. First and foremost, I'm not implying anything; this was a report from our chief fire and rescue adviser, and I have a duty to then respond to it when it raises things around training and safety. And we're not implying anything about individual office firefighters or actual stations, just that, actually, we need that evidence and information and to work collaboratively with the fire and rescue services and the representatives of the workforce to actually address some of those issues in the short term.

And with regards to the longer term, actually, the best way we can actually look at some of those longer term challenges—and I raised, in the statement, concerns around that—I know it affects Members in most places in Wales—a lot of us are heavily reliant on the RDS, the retained duty service, and we've seen, over the years, that change, and people's lifestyle has changed, the reliance on that has changed as well, and I think there is a real big job of work to do on that. And the reason for having this forum is not just to bring people together for the sake of it, but to actually realise that we can pool that expertise, that experience, and bring that together and get it right as well.

And the Member conflates a number of issues in his contribution there—I hesitate to say potentially deliberately, but this is entirely separate from any issues around industrial action or pay and conditions. This is an issue of firefighter training and safety, and that's why I thought it was my duty to bring it to Members today, to raise that, but also to say, actually—. It's an incredible privilege to be in this position, and to go out and see first-hand some of the activities that our firefighters undertake in the services across Wales. The point of this is, actually, we want to work collaboratively, we want to work together, but we do need the fire and rescue services to fully respond to the most recent report, so that we can actually get a clearer picture of what the challenges are in different places and make sure that we address them in a way that not only works for our incredible fire and rescue firefighters, but also for communities across Wales.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the statement today.

Thankfully, we are seeing fewer and fewer domestic fires. I think that's a positive thing going forward, and, of course, I know that there are many people in the fire service who wish now to see what else they can do in order for the service to remain relevant.

I was quite disappointed, actually, with one of the comments made by Joel, which sort of, in my view, equated the fact that now there are fewer fires with firefighters now using that as an opportunity to sleep on shift. I thought that was quite a disappointing comment, to be quite frank with you.

But, our fire service, needless to say, are facing—

Joel James rose—

Joel, this isn't a debate, so interventions are not possible. So, carry on, Luke Fletcher.

But that statement wasn't me, that was the report.

You can carry on, Luke Fletcher.

Carry on? No worries.

Of course, our fire services are facing increased pressures. Staff shortages are one of them, climate-change-induced weather extremes occurring more and more often, and challenges that will come as we head into winter in the midst of an unprecedented cost-of-living crisis. The National Fire Chiefs Council is worried that people are going to be at additional risk due to the cost-of-living crisis, in the sense that as people look for cheaper, alternative methods to keep warm in the face of soaring energy bills, they may be using outdated or faulty portable heaters and electric blankets, or that under the misconception that it is cheaper to use electricity during off-peak hours, more people may be using white goods while they are asleep, for example. This means that if there is a fire, it might go longer undetected, allowing occupants less time to respond quickly and safely.

On top of this, of course, this summer, the Fire Brigades Union noted that instead of improving fire and rescue services, we have had 11,500 firefighters cut since 2010, and there's a growing reliance on retained or on-call firefighters, who are expected to learn the range of firefighting skills in a fraction of the time compared to their full-time colleagues. The chief fire officer for mid and west Wales, Roger Thomas, has commented on how unsustainable this retained model is; young people aren't coming in to replace the older on-call firefighters at the moment. Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service currently has 702 full-time equivalent posts for retained firefighters, but the current cohort is 574. They've tried measures to recruit firefighters, such as liaising with local employers and offering courses, but something more radical is needed. It appears to be, potentially, a generational problem. So, to that end, how is the Welsh Government going to ensure that future training targets younger people, that it fosters a sustainable recruitment model, and reduces the reliance on on-call firefighters? 

Now, not only must we improve the training provided, but we must ensure that the pay and conditions that our firefighters have is of an acceptable quality. We know that members of the Fire Brigades Union will be balloted in coming weeks on whether to launch a campaign of industrial action after rejecting a 5 per cent pay offer. The Fire Brigades Union general secretary noted that there were firefighters using foodbanks. These are the same people who helped work through the pandemic to protect their communities and took on extra duties to do so, and are currently facing further challenges and pressures. So, I just wanted to take the opportunity to say that a further real-terms pay cut is a disgusting way to repay them.

But, now, to improve work conditions and the safety of our fire service, how will future fire service training ensure that outdated and potentially dangerous firefighting tactics aren't being taught, as identified in the thematic review? And how will this be monitored and maintained? And given the recurring themes of inadequate training time constrained by working patterns, what does the Deputy Minister see as the solution to this? For example, what did the fire and rescue authorities have to say on this in their response? Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank Luke Fletcher for his contribution and the number of points he made there? You picked up at the start the very prescient point, the fact that we have fewer and fewer domestic fires now is testament to the success of the fire and rescue service, but, as you also pointed out, the challenges that we face through climate change and, potentially, the cost-of-living crisis have evolved, so the pressure continues, and for the service to evolve and have the support to do that is really important.

I'm just going to pick up on the point you make with regard to the potential challenge of people trying to keep warm in different ways if they, perhaps, can't afford to heat their home in the way they would have done usually—if they're plugging in heaters or using candles and things like that. The fire and rescue services do have a programme of—. We fund them through community safety grants to go in and do those checks. We're liaising very close with them and it also has been raised to have a look at how we could do that in the cost-of-living crisis, to perhaps look at some of the materials that are being used, to make sure we can address those issues, and perhaps looking for those dangers too. But it's an incredibly comprehensive programme they have of checking particularly vulnerable people as well—more vulnerable people in their homes. And it's meant that, clearly, if we look in the future to broaden the role, that's already something that they do in looking at those risks in people's households as well.

You rightly touched on the challenges of the retained duty system, and you referenced the chief, Roger Thomas, in mid and west Wales. I have regular meetings with the three chiefs, but also individually, and try and get out to meet them on location. The last time I spoke with Roger Thomas, there was very much a focus on concerns around the sustainability of the RDS system. You're right to say that, for many years, there have been tweaks around the edges, and it's got to the point now where we do need to look at it and address it, which is why I've highlighted it in the statement. It's something I would like for them to collectively look at, because there are different models elsewhere, but it's not just a challenge for Wales—it does exist in similar communities right across the UK. Whether there are things in the interim we can do in terms of using the levers across Government to, perhaps, work with employers to say, 'Actually, release staff to be part of the RDS system.' We're committed to doing that, but, obviously, we need to look at the longer term, how that works, because people's lives have changed, and the way people live and work has changed as well.

What's heartening is I've had the pleasure of meeting—slightly out of your region, Luke, in north Wales, in Rhyl—some new recruits to the fire service. I think they were in their third week in. So, they were very keen, coming from all different backgrounds, with a variety of reasons as to why they'd joined the fire and rescue services, and there really was an enthusiasm there for thinking what else the fire service could do as well within those skill resources that they have. So, I do believe there is an opportunity there, but, like I said, I think we have to get through those challenges around looking at training and getting those reassurances from the individual services, and making sure that we can have that proper analysis and look at how we move forward and address those broader issues.

I'll just touch on the points around firefighter pay and, of course, we're in a very different situation in Wales compared to elsewhere in the UK, in terms of how the fire and rescue services are funded. So, we don't directly fund them. Obviously, it's through the Welsh Local Government Association and local authority levies. I do regularly meet with the FBU as well. I had a meeting with them recently, last week, so what we can do to, perhaps, put those pressures on to get further funding, potentially from the Home Office through public sector funding to support the firefighters as they move forward as well.

I'd just like to understand, first of all, that the response to the chief fire and rescue adviser's report, you've received it from north Wales, but you haven't had a comprehensive reply from mid or south Wales rescue authorities. That's disappointing to hear, because I know you called for it in your statement on 11 November, I think, in this Chamber, and you said you expected to receive that imminently. So, what I'm about to say is not their view that I've received, because nobody seems to have had it yet, but it is the view of the Fire Brigades Union members that I've spoken to.

So, I just wanted to share with you, in the absence of the rescue authorities giving you a view, this is what I've had from the Fire Brigades Union members. They feel that there's currently an issue with fatigue on shifts and it's not something that—. Sorry, they do not feel there's currently an issue with fatigue on shifts and it's not something that they feel needs to be addressed. That's what was told to me by an FBU member, a fire worker, in south Wales. They said that they feel that the stand-down periods that firefighters have between shifts, removing those periods could actually be counterproductive, and they feel that they wouldn't want to see that happen. They feel that, if the changes go ahead, then fatigue will actually increase. They feel stand-down periods are vital to ensuring sufficient rest for firefighters between shifts, and adopting the proposed changes would have an adverse impact on work-life balance for a workforce who staff a service that is open 24/7/365, and childcare arrangements, for example, would be negatively affected, in the view of this fire worker that I spoke to. They find themselves, they told me, in agreement with their senior management, although I note, as I've said earlier, that senior management don't seem to have responded to you—[Interruption.] Oh, they have. Okay, they have responded to you—okay.

So, I think your social partnership approach is really useful. I think if these issues are to be ironed out, that's the best way to do it. Does the Minister think, therefore, that any interim meetings would be useful, to understand the view of the FBU as it was described to me?

Diolch. Can I thank Hefin David for his contribution there? Just to clarify, as I read the statement I thought, actually, it's not overly clear. All three fire and rescue services, to put it on the record, have responded as they were asked to do to the chief fire and rescue adviser's report on training, but only north Wales has actually set it out in responding to each recommendation with a clear action of what they're trying to do to address it, which is what we were seeking, to have that assurance that it was being taken seriously and that it was considered, even if they were going to come back and say, 'Well, actually that's not how we perceive it; we perceive this,' with the evidence as well. So, that's just to clarify that.

I think you're referring, rather than to the most recent training review, to the earlier thematic review, which looked at whether there was scope to broaden the role, and one of the findings of the chief fire and rescue adviser was around the current shift patterns, wasn't it? It was four on, four off, and nine-hour days and 15-hour nights. So, the focus at the moment is on that training and getting the training right, and of course anything like that would need to be negotiated and go through the proper channels. So, absolutely, we're committed to working with the FBU and all representatives, and through regular dialogue and hopefully through the new social partnership forum, when it's established, to address those broader challenges and to make the fire service more sustainable, because—and I would say this, because of the background I come from as well—I think it's absolutely essential to have the voice of the workforce as part of that, to shape it for the future, to sustain it, and to support them as well.

I thank the Deputy Minister.