The next item is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport on public commemoration in Wales: guidance for public bodies. I call on the Deputy Minister, Dawn Bowden, to make the statement.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Public commemoration is central to the way in which we represent—

I was having the feedback in my ear then, sorry. I'll start again.

Public commemoration is central to the way in which we represent our history, promote our values and celebrate our communities. But it can sometimes be controversial, and will always be an issue of considerable public interest. Today, I am delighted to announce that we are going out to public consultation on 'Public commemoration in Wales: guidance for public bodies'.

This guidance is intended to help public bodies make good decisions that manage the risks of controversy, that take opportunities to create a more informed relationship with our history, and that genuinely celebrate the diversity of our communities. The guidance fulfils a commitment in the programme for government to address fully the recommendations of 'The Slave Trade and the British Empire: An Audit of Commemoration in Wales', which was first published in November 2020, and re-issued with amendments a year later. The guidance also directly supports one of the goals of the Welsh Government’s 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan':

'To work with public bodies to fully recognise their responsibility...for setting the right historic narrative, promoting and delivering a balanced, authentic and decolonised account of the past'.

The action plan includes a specific action of

'appropriately addressing the way in which people and events with known historical associations to slavery and colonialism are commemorated' in our public spaces and collections,

'acknowledging the harm done by their actions and reframing the presentation of their legacy to fully recognise this.'

The guidance also fulfils a recommendation in the report of the Senedd Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, published in March 2021, 'Set in Stone? A report on who gets remembered in public spaces'. This recommended that Welsh Government should provide clear guidance that would present a route-map for decision making in relation to both historical and future acts of commemoration.

The audit of commemoration in Wales demonstrated very clearly the extent to which legacies of the slave trade and the British empire are still visible in our public places. The purpose of the guidance is to help public bodies deal with those legacies. The guidance also addresses the diversity of Welsh society, and the fact that many of its characteristics are barely visible in public commemorations. For example, very few people of black, Asian or minority ethnic heritage, and very few named women, have been publicly commemorated in Wales, and it would be difficult to find any representation of disabled and LGBTQ+ people. So, as we reflect on who is commemorated already, we should also reflect on who and what is missing, taking opportunities to address under-representation, and respond to changing values, as well as to deepen our understanding of historical issues and events.

The guidance sets out best practice for decision making and is not mandatory. Its focus is on how to make good decisions rather than on what decisions to make. It is in two parts. Part 1 introduces the issues around public commemoration and its impact, and part 2 sets out four steps that public bodies should take in order to address these issues and realise the contribution of public commemoration to the achievement of an anti-racist Wales. These four steps are: establishing a framework for inclusive decision making; setting clear objectives for public commemoration; establishing criteria for decision making; and, taking action to meet objectives and address the issues raised by public commemoration.

Taking all these steps will help public bodies to discharge their responsibilities under the specific action included in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It will also enable them to use public commemorations more generally to contribute to an anti-racist Wales, and to deepen understanding of our past and its legacies, and to celebrate the achievements of our diverse society.

The guidance is focused on permanent and deliberate commemoration in public places—that is, statues, sculptures, and plaques—and the names of streets and public buildings. There are many such commemorations in Wales, and past decisions about who or what to honour—decisions that were often taken by a small elite—remain highly visible in our public spaces. Many of them add character to our surroundings and, by offering a visible reminder of people and events in the past, they can prompt historical enquiry. But, as the audit of commemoration in Wales has shown, that enquiry can sometimes lead us to dark places in our past, especially where figures linked with the slave trade and colonial exploitation are literally put on a pedestal.

The commemorations that we have inherited don't necessarily reflect our values, but they may still be able to earn their place if we use them actively to learn about how earlier generations viewed the world, to reflect on the different way we view the world today, and to provoke thought rather than division. The recent re-interpretations of Thomas Picton, through information panels adjacent to the monument in Carmarthen and through the re-framing of his portrait in Amgueddfa Cymru, are intended to do just that.

And, just as we have inherited these legacies that tell us something about the values of the past, so we should consider bequeathing something to future generations that presents what we value as we strive to achieve a more equal Wales. We can do that through the way we treat existing commemorations, we can do it through who we choose to commemorate in future, but we must also do it through the way in which decisions about commemorations are made. The guidance assumes that decisions should be made locally, grounded in inclusive practices that encourage public bodies to listen and respond to the full diversity of our communities.

Development of the guidance itself was fully informed by a series of workshops attended by a broad spectrum of stakeholders with relevant lived experience. I'd like to thank the workshop attendees and all those who gave their time to contribute to the development of this guidance, including Gaynor Legall who led the original task and finish group and kindly commented on earlier drafts. The public consultation exercise that starts today gives another opportunity for different voices to be heard. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank the Deputy Minister for the statement?

Can I also say that it was wonderful to hear you speaking Welsh at the start? It was very nice to hear.

The guidance that was released earlier today is to be welcomed, where I'm sure the Deputy Minister sought to provide clarity for public bodies, such as local authorities, to understand better the issues of public commemorations. Can I also associate myself with your remarks in particular about who is missing, because I think that is an entirely valid and fair point? I think non-white people publicly commemorated in Wales, women and people who have had disabilities, are very, very difficult to find. So, I totally agree with your sentiment there as well.

First of all, though, I'd like to reiterate that all these decisions are taken in the round, and to make sure that there is not a one-size-fits-all attitude to installing or even removing existing commemorations. This brings me on to the point of what may be termed 'problematic individuals' in the guidance. In other words, monuments to people whose actions have today caused controversy. Obviously, that's an issue that arouses strong passions on all sides. Instead of removing or destroying monuments and artwork of people who would perhaps now be seen by some as having a negative background, this could be seen instead, as you mentioned, as an opportunity to add an additional piece of context to educate the public about the full background of the person involved, giving both the problematic details and the reasons why they are commemorated as well.

Of course, a balanced view of the history of these people will add to public knowledge and our own historical understanding too. However, that should never take the form of cultural vandalism or tearing down or destroying of historical memory. It's often been said that those who forget the past are the ones doomed to repeat it. In events like the toppling the statue of Edward Colston in Bristol and the boarding up of the statue of Thomas Picton, we can see that turning historical monuments into a reference point for US-style identity politics is a road that only leads to division. What we need to make sure is that these decisions are all taken at a local level with clear guidance, as I hope we've seen the pathway towards today, to make sure that it is not just one specific group or viewpoint that feeds into the decision makers at the expense and sacrifice of others. Therefore, what considerations have you given, Deputy Minister, to this, and how do you intend on ensuring that all views are heard when it comes to future commemorations?

I also wanted just to touch, briefly, on the tragic passing of Her late Majesty. During the period of mourning, we've seen a variety of moving monuments and memorials being laid to pay tribute to our longest serving monarch, and that's often been done collaboratively between local residents and councils. As the faces of our new King gradually begins to appear on our currency, I think it's important that we make sure that there are permanent, lasting dedications as well to our late Queen. As is rightly pointed out in the guidance that was issued today, public commemorations are created for a range of purposes and done with honourable intentions. So, we need to make sure that we don't look at everything in the past through a twenty-first century lens, but with the ideas and thoughts of today, so that we can educate the next generations on our history, and not try to rewrite it.

I am concerned, though, in the guidance, about the wording surrounding military figures, where it's also suggested that they too are seen as problematic, as some may remember 'the casualties of their campaigns'. These are people who, on the whole, have served on behalf of our country and did so with honour and merit. They don't deserve a potential opening of this can of worms by guidance, not clearly stated, that those who served our country to defend our freedoms that we cherish so dearly today could, potentially, find themselves disgraced or vilified just for following orders that were set for them at the time to defend our freedoms and serve our country.

In the 'principles and practice' part of the guidance, while it's noted and accepted that inclusive decision making hears and acts upon the experience of diverse communities, again, I'd like to reiterate the point that we don't have the same people time and again making the same decisions on every plaque, every monument, and every commemoration. A breadth of diversity, voices and perspective is crucial in decision making too. And I accept the fact that engagement is going to be vital through all these processes. As an example of this, in the planning process that is being deployed by local councils, these processes could have the opportunity to enrich communities, social cohesion and interested views by bring all viewpoints together with a shared objective of ensuring their community is heard through education and information. I've no doubt that there will be strong views on all sides, regardless of what type of commemorations that are put forward in the future, but we need to ensure that we don't sacrifice the views of one community in favour of another, which could in turn cause further divisions within those communities. Therefore, my final question would be: given the finely balanced approach needed to ensure no community is left behind, what further engagement work could you be doing, Minister, with stakeholders to provide an opportunity for all communities to involve themselves in this process? Thank you.

Can I thank Tom Giffard for those largely supportive comments and some of the very constructive suggestions that he made? To try and take your points in order, Tom, it is our intention that all decisions made on how we commemorate, both in terms of future and existing public commemorations, are made by local people and that there is as wide a possible involvement in that as we possibly can. Part of the process for the consultation around the guidance is that it is giving yet another opportunity for the widest breadth of the population to get involved and to say what they think about that.

On the process that we employed to draft the guidance, we had a number of bodies and stakeholders involved, headed by Marian Gwyn from Race Council Cymru, and a series of workshops were held where people from all different groups and backgrounds were able to come along and have their say. And, as I say, the person who led the original audit, Gaynor Legall, has also had the opportunity to comment on them. I hope that the consultation process will expand on that, but this is where we've started.

I think what is important in all of this—. You talked about how we shouldn't go down the road of cultural vandalism, and you talked about Colston and Picton, and I'll come back to Picton in a moment. In both those circumstances, there have been—. The city of Bristol, for instance, has actually set up—. I'm trying to think what the name of the organisation is now. They've set up the We Are Bristol History Commission, which is where they're helping the community to address the complex and contested heritage. There's something very similar going on in Liverpool as well, with their contested history.

I don't think this is about cultural vandalism in the sense of destroying monuments; it is about how we interpret them. If we talk about Picton, for instance, I said I wanted to come back to him, because you made the point about the military and, of course, Picton was a military general. But Picton was also responsible for torturing a 14-year-old girl. So, what we say is that in recognising his place in our history and what he did as a general, fighting for his country under the orders that he was given, he also did some terrible things, involved in the slave trade, which also involved torturing a young slave girl. That needs to be told as well, and that needs to be contextualised in terms of balancing the history that you are talking about. 

I think we are on the same page. I think that what we are saying is that we understand that when these monuments were originally erected we looked at it in a different way. We are now looking at it through a different lens. I just think about the conversation I had with the manager of the Cyfarthfa museum in my constituency, when I stood on the steps of Cyfarthfa castle and we were underneath Crawshay's bedroom. We looked out across Merthyr and the manager said to me, 'This is where Crawshay stood every morning and surveyed everything he owned across Merthyr Tydfil.' But of course, we can't look at that through twenty-first century eyes, because in the time of the Crawshays, and certainly the early Crawshays, relatively speaking those workers were well paid and were well looked after. So, we have to set that in the context of that era, as opposed to the twenty-first century. But it is about absolutely balancing the context of the history of anybody that we're going to seek to commemorate.

Finally, Heledd Fychan.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. I'd like to echo the points that you've already made on those people who aren't currently commemorated. Certainly there are places that aren't commemorated. It's important that we look at the broader context to ensure that anything we have does reflect contemporary Wales. Of course, we have all been welcoming the new statue in our capital city, the Betty Campbell statue. It's incredible how that inspires schoolchildren and so on to understand what's happening today and to discuss that, as well as celebrating what Betty herself achieved. I'd also like to echo Tom Giffard's comment on your use of Welsh at the beginning of the statement. It's very good to hear more Members giving Welsh a go here.

As you know, Deputy Minister, I used to work for Amgueddfa Cymru and often passed that Thomas Picton picture. It was just a painting on the wall for me. But when Black Lives Matter emerged as a campaign, I then came to understand, because of my privilege as a white person, that I wasn't aware of the problematic history of that portrait. And I think what has been welcomed is that wider discussion, that we are coming to understand what that means and what it means for people who have very different experiences to our own. Certainly, one of the things that I'm very pleased to see in light of this work is that it isn't something that's been entirely reactive. There's been work over two years and longer in order to get us to this point, so that we now do have something that will hopefully be useful for public bodies who are in receipt of public funds, and that they do take seriously the views of everyone in society.

I also think it's important that we recognise as a Senedd that not everyone is happy with this. If you look at some of the comments that were referred to National Museum Cardiff when they started their work on Thomas Picton, not everyone is agreed on the fact that there is any sort of discussion on this and that there is reinterpretation. And it can be a strong voice on social media with those views. I'm not suggesting that anyone follows them, but if you want to make yourselves angry, then Save Our Statues on Twitter demonstrates clearly that they don't agree with this kind of stance, with this reinterpretation. I know that you've mentioned how this will help organisations to take account and to consider how they proceed with this work, but I think we have to be honest and admit that this is going to be contentious at times, and that's fine, and that our public organisations will have the Government's support and support from me and from Plaid Cymru, certainly in terms of dealing with this important work. It's right that we do have those difficult debates, because history isn't always easy or comfortable. 

I know that we shouldn't forget our history, but having these discussions—. If we are serious about being an anti-racist Wales and we seriously want to see that happen, there will be disagreement, and we're not always going to be listening to the voice of the majority if they are all white voices. And certainly in terms of seeing responses such as this, I think one of the very important things in terms of the consultation is that we see who responds, and if there is opposition, from what viewpoint is that opposition coming. Because I have seen that my former university in Ireland is looking at the moment at renaming the library there because of problematic links with the past, and certainly there is encouragement from people like Save Our Statues for people to pile in in giving responses to that consultation so that the views of white people are conveyed clearly. We have to be assured that we are listening to those who haven't been involved in the dialogue to date and have been important in this work. 

I also welcome the fact that this is a very different way of looking at this compared to the UK Government in that we do give that encouragement to local authorities and public bodies to proceed with this anti-racist work. What I would like to ask is: you've said that this isn't mandatory, which is of course a good thing, that we encourage people, but what happens if people don't follow any sort of guidance and don't engage? Also, on the issue of funding to support this work, very often, in local museums and so on, the number of staff working in engagement is very small, so what support will be provided to them so that they too, as Amgueddfa Cymru has demonstrated, can do that engagement work necessary in terms of these activities?

I look forward to hearing what comes back from the consultation, but I certainly welcome this move towards ensuring that we do tackle our problematic history and that we work together in order to create an anti-racist Wales and ensure that everyone's history is reflected and remembered.

Diolch yn fawr, Heledd, and thank you for the support for the work that we're doing, because it is hugely important work. We talked about this as being something that has been developing over the course of a couple of years. We developed a lot of this work in the wake of the Black Lives Matter campaign and the murder of George Floyd and what we saw happen around the world. We've taken that opportunity to build this anti-racist consensus around some of this.

I think it's absolutely right that what we say—and I think this was one of the points Tom Giffard was making as well—is that what we are not seeking to do here is rewrite history. History is history, and the facts of history and what happened are there. But, what we can do is we can contextualise our history and we can acknowledge our part in some of the more unsavoury parts of our history, and we can seek to understand the impact that that had on future generations in the way that we commemorate those statues, paintings, or whatever it might be, in public. I think that is absolutely the right thing to do.

Like you, I'm only too well aware that there will be voices that are not in line with this and that will not want us to do those things, but that doesn't mean that we should necessarily listen to all those voices, because if what people are trying to perpetuate is racism, then that is not something that I'm interested in listening to. I am interested in listening to why people think we may not want to do things in a particular way, but I'm not interested in listening to racist views and racist voices that perpetuate those inequalities in our society.

One very valid point that you have raised is what do we do—because this is not mandatory, this is voluntary—what do we do in those areas where a public body may choose not to take up something? Well, I think one of the things that we have already done, because we've started to do some groundwork on this already, is that we have paid—through the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', we've made quite a bit of funding available to a number of organisations, including small museums, to train their staff and curators to actually understand what the issues are. And just as an example of that, I visited Abergavenny museum relatively recently and the staff there were saying that they had undertaken this training that had been provided, and it was suddenly like lightbulb moments, that they started to understand that the way in which you commemorate and the way in which you display your collections and exhibitions, you tell a story, and that you have a narrative. And they showed me, they had a little cottage kitchen in Abergavenny museum, and there was tea and sugar on the table, and they said, 'We've never thought, in explaining what all of this was in this kitchen, about where tea and sugar came from, and how it arrived on those tables'. So, they are now looking at taking all of that on board, and they were very much welcoming the guidance that will be coming down the road so that they can think very long and hard about how they engage with the local population in correctly interpreting all of that.

But as I said, it is not mandatory, and because it is not mandatory, it will not be coming with any funding as such. But what I would say is that it may be possible to build the delivery of objectives into future funding opportunities, linked to the emerging culture strategy—and I know that that's something, Heledd, that you've been very interested in right from the outset, and we're now making significant progress on that—and there have been previous funding collaborations between Cadw and the National Lottery Heritage Fund, supporting some of the reinterpretations around some of the more controversial public monuments, and I would certainly hope that that would be something that we could look at again in the future.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.