Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, three weeks ago, you and I debated the value of a Wales-wide bird flu housing Order. In your response to my appeal for the pre-emptive policy, you stated that the evidence that all CVOs in the UK had to hand did not warrant such a response here in Wales. Fast-forward to last week, and, following pressure from both the industry, myself, and with new evidence, you reviewed Welsh Government regulations, and, from Friday, Wales will have its housing Order. As I'm sure that you know, however, this isn't the only challenge facing our poultry industry. The rise in overhead costs, and the supermarkets' unwillingness to pay producers a fair price for their eggs, has left the industry unable to keep pace with production costs, prompting some producers to either quit the industry or cut their flocks.

When the dairy industry faced similar problems with their milk contracts, the Welsh Government worked to consult and introduce fairer dairy contracts. So, given this—and previously, you mentioned that you have an inter-governmental meeting on Monday—can I ask that the Welsh Government commits to a poultry contract feasibility investigation to find out why our farmers are getting a raw deal for their produce?

Well, I can assure the Member that it wasn't because of pressure from him that I made the decision for mandatory housing last Friday; it was purely on the scientific evidence and the advice I sought from the chief veterinary officer. Obviously, all four chief veterinary officers received the same advice. How it's interpreted, then, by Ministers is obviously a matter for each Minister. Three weeks is a long time in an outbreak like this, and it became clear to me, probably in the middle of last week—probably about a week ago— that the advice was changing. And that's why we brought in the mandatory housing of birds—. Well, it will be coming in this Friday, but I announced it last Friday, along with stringent biosecurity requirements, because biosecurity is incredibly important, as we try and do all that we can in the face of this very unprecendented avian influenza outbreak. 

I quite agree with what you're saying in relation to it not being the only thing that is concerning the poultry sector. The price that they're getting—. And, certainly, I had some very interesting discussions with farmers at the winter fair on Monday, and I mentioned in an earlier answer that we have seen a lot of farmers diversify into poultry over the last few years. Certainly, it is a discussion, as I've said, that is on the agenda for the inter-ministerial group on Monday. Unfortunately, I understand that the Secretary of State won't be at the meeting, which I think is unfortunate, but, certainly, I will raise what we can do across the UK at that meeting. And, if it looks as if we have to do something on our own, we can certainly look at what we can do. And I appreciate what you were saying about dairy, and it could be that we will need to see what, if anything, we can do to help our poultry producers. 

Thank you, Minister. I appreciate the response, and given your meeting on Monday, it would be welcome to hear from you whether declaring an exceptional market condition is something that is discussed at that meeting on Monday. Because, anecdotally, at the Hybu Cig Cymru breakfast on Monday at the winter fair, there weren't any eggs at the breakfast, showing just how much difficulty the industry is facing in these unprecedented times. 

Moving on to a different topic, I was recently given sight of a Welsh Government freedom of information response to a request that sought information on the amount of carbon sequestered through agricultural land use in Wales. The Welsh Government's response: well, you don't hold this data, and this is concerning. Most of Wales's agricultural land is grassland—land use that, studies have shown can sequester carbon as equally as trees, or even better in some certain climates. The farming industry knows the role that it must play in protecting and improving our environment and biodiversity, but for the Welsh Government to introduce such sweeping policy changes without the knowledge of the good that the industry is already doing is somewhat of a kick in the teeth to Wales's hard-working farmers. 

So, what data are you using to underpin the agricultural Bill and the sustainable farming scheme, if you don't know what carbon is currently being sequestered in Welsh agricultural land?

Before I answer your second question, I'll just go back to the first question about the inter-ministerial group. I always publish a written statement following the IMG, so the Member will be updated in relation to that. 

You will have heard me say in an earlier answer that we know that farmers are already providing so many environmental outcomes—and, of course, that includes carbon storage on their farms—and not being rewarded for it. And the sustainable farming scheme is a way of ensuring that they are rewarded for it in the way that the basic payment scheme doesn't. I think it's fair to say that, in general, most farmers would say that the common agricultural policy hasn't rewarded them in the way that it could have done, but it is really important that we get this scheme right now, so that things like carbon storage are rewarded in a way that we believe it should be, to help us. And you're absolutely right—the agricultural sector, of course, recognises the significant role that it has to play in us reaching net zero. And, in fact, the National Farmers Union Cymru, for instance, have got very ambitious targets to enable them to help us with that. So, we don't keep data on absolutely everything, but of course we know that if you look at peatland or, as you say, farms in general across the country, the amount of carbon storage is significant. I remember—it was probably before you came to the Senedd, and I'm trying to think which consultation it was I launched—a farmer was very proud to tell me at the farm where we did the launch just how much carbon was being stored per acre in his farm.

Thank you, Minister. It is a bit concerning that, if you don't have that baseline information available, how do we know that these projects that the sustainable farming scheme is going to introduce are actually benefiting carbon sequestration, because we don't have the baseline figure to work from? So, while there are carbon calculators out there that every farm can do, you and I both know that there are varying carbon calculators out there that offer very different calculations. So, I'd be really keen to stress that there needs to be a baseline figure here, where we know that a sustainable farming scheme introduced is delivering the benefits that we're looking to achieve within the agricultural sector. 

But, sticking with the agriculture Bill and the sustainable farming scheme, I want to draw your attention, as Peredur did earlier, to tenant and common land farmers. Having recently met with the representatives and attended NFU Cymru's policy launch for common land at the winter fair, coupled with the strong evidence from both tenant farmers and common land farmers presented at my committee, I'm left with some serious concerns about the lack of consideration given to these farm types by Welsh Government policy. A tenancy working group was formed, although its first meeting was only a couple of weeks ago, and last month I asked you for a specific group for common land farmers, but I've heard no progress on this—two examples of how both are seen as somewhat of an afterthought by the Welsh Government. Minister, both tenant and common land farmers make up a big proportion of active farmers here in Wales. If the agriculture Bill and the sustainable farming scheme fail to work for them, it will have huge consequences on the viability of Welsh family farms across our country. So, what guarantees can you give that neither tenant farmers nor common land farmers will be negatively impacted by the introduction of the agriculture Bill and specifically the sustainable farming scheme? Diolch.

Thank you. Again, just to go back to your second question, I think the number of carbon calculators that are available is an issue for us as we try and ascertain just how much carbon is being stored. One of the things I've asked officials to look at is if we can just use one, so everybody knows what they're looking at and how to use it. Certainly, I think we can get it down to single figures, and very early single figures—three, maybe, at the absolute maximum. Certainly, that is something that farmers are asking me to do, because I think it will help them. 

In relation to your final question, I'm not sure if you heard me say we are having a common land working group. That is currently being established. It will be meeting before Christmas, and you're quite right that the tenant working group has already met. I think it's really important now we let these working groups do their work now we've come to the end of the second stage of the co-design, ahead of that final consultation at the end of next year. Both parts of the agricultural sector you refer to—tenants and common land—are very important to the agricultural sector here in Wales. The Bill contains modifications to the Agricultural Tenancies Act 1995, for instance, so it is really important that we hear from both of those parts of the sector, and both of those working groups will be meeting regularly and reporting back to me.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. It was good to see you in the winter fair on Monday, and it was a great opportunity to catch up with some of the farmers and listen to their concerns. You'll know as well as others that one of the most important things that did come up was the avian flu. That's a huge concern, and we clearly welcome the mandatory housing measures that you've brought in, or will be brought in this Friday. Having said that, businesses will still face crippling disruption to their activities, namely those dealing with eggs and poultry meats, and there are concerns from the sector, and poultry farmers in my own constituency, that the problem of severe market disruption caused by the flu in poultry meat and egg sectors is being compounded by the massive inflation in feed and energy costs. Now, in your answer earlier, you said that you will be raising with UK Government this issue and asking what they can do and you will be exploring things that you could do alone as a Welsh Government. But, of course, the Welsh Government could use the powers available under Schedule 5, Part 2 of the Agriculture Act 2020 to declare exceptional market conditions, which would enable the provision of support to egg and poultry producers. So, does the Minister agree that the Welsh Government should use these powers, and, if so, will you use them?

Well, again, it is something that we could do. We don't know how long this is going to last for. It could be that we will need to do it sooner rather than later, for instance, but I would prefer to have that discussion, because we haven't really had that ministerial discussion across the UK, because obviously it's very integrated across the UK. So, I would rather hear from the UK Government first to see if they are offering any support. As you know, we've been asking them to bring forward some further funding because of the significant input costs that the agricultural sector has and continues to suffer from. You will have heard that at the winter fair—I heard that there's 36 per cent inflation now on our farms. Across the board, it's 11 per cent, but on-farm inflation is significantly higher. So, I would prefer to have that discussion at a ministerial level on Monday.

My officials have been attending weekly meetings, as I say, at an official level, but my food division officials have also been having daily contact in relation to the costs. We've seen some supermarkets start to limit the number of eggs that consumers can buy. We are concerned because, as we know, if something gets in the media around that, it's very difficult then to stop that panic buying. So, I'm really pleased to see that hasn't happened. Interestingly, the same as Sam Kurtz, I did wonder at the Hybu Cig Cymru breakfast, when we didn't have eggs, if that was indeed the case. It's very obvious at the winter fair that we don't have birds there, but I thought that was a really in-your-face example of what we're suffering at the moment. So, I'd be very happy to update Members following the IMG next Monday. 

Thank you for that response. 

Thanks for that. Okay. Moving on to fisheries, if I may, the 2012 fisheries concordat sets out how the UK's quota allocation is divided between the four administrations, and provides overarching principles on effort control and licensing. One key element covered by the concordat is the set of conditions associated with the economic link. The economic link is a fisheries licence condition. It currently applies to all UK-registered vessels over 10m in length that land more than 2 tonnes of UK quota per annum, including supertrawlers. In short, it requires them to demonstrate a real link to the economy of the UK by meeting one of the criteria set out in their vessel's economic link licence condition. These criteria can be summarised as landing at least 50 per cent of the vessel's quota into the UK, employing a crew of whom at least 50 per cent reside in the UK, or making at least 50 per cent of normal operating expenditure into UK coastal areas. As the Minister will know, the economic link is a devolved issue. Economic link licence conditions are present in current Welsh Government fishing licence documents for commercial fishing vessels. However, as the majority of the Welsh fleet is made up of small vessels under 10m, it's hard to know how many, if any, vessels in the Welsh fishing fleet are subject to an economic link licence condition. So, given the presence of environmentally damaging supertrawlers in Welsh waters, as well as other boats larger than 10m, can I ask the Minister to what extent the economic link conditions apply to boats that fish in Welsh waters? In other words, how many vessels are subject to the economic link conditions and what economic benefits does Wales get from this arrangement?

Thank you. That took me back to December council fishing negotiations in a previous life. Certainly, I haven't got those figures to hand, but I'd be very happy to write to the Member in relation to that. I know officials are having discussions at the moment around the number of licences that have been allocated since we left the European Union, going forward, but I'd be very happy to write to the Member about the economic link.