Group 11: Enforcement action by local authorities (Amendments 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)

– in the Senedd at 5:48 pm on 6 December 2022.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:48, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

We will therefore move to group 11 next. The amendments in group 11 relate to enforcement action by local authorities. The lead amendment is amendment 25, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the other amendments in the group. Janet Finch-Saunders.

(Translated)

Amendment 25 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Photo of Janet Finch-Saunders Janet Finch-Saunders Conservative 5:48, 6 December 2022

Diolch, Llywydd. Amendment 25 inserts a new section onto the face of the Bill. This amendment requires Welsh Ministers to ensure that local authorities receive sufficient funding to carry out actions required as a result of this Bill. Many of us here in the Senedd know that, quite often, when laws are passed here, the implications that are passed down to local authorities to enforce, educate—. Often, no extra resources are provided. When I speak to council leaders or their finance chiefs, it is a fact that they are sometimes concerned about laws that are made here, because of the financial implications and pressures it puts on our already overstretched local authorities.

Now, in Stage 2, the Minister claimed she was unable to accept this amendment as the Welsh Government would try to reduce costs as much as possible. The Minister stated that enforcement, to begin with, would focus on education. Now, I appreciate that response, although I don't think it squashes any concerns local authorities have around funding. To me, it basically said, 'We will fund our guidance and we hope this will be enough to change the behaviour of businesses.' Local authorities need commitment from you, Minister, and I would even ask you to—. I'm sort of getting my begging bowl out now on behalf of all of those local authorities who are going to see this come down. They're going to want to make sure that their local authority is able to educate, is able to enforce, but we only need to look at our planning departments, animal welfare, food standards, planning. Those kinds of departments are really overstretched—regulatories. And so, really, we need some commitment from you. The local authorities need commitment from you that they will not be left to cover the cost of enforcing this Bill. They are strained enough as it is. If you want enforcement to be sufficient, you need to ensure the funding is there, otherwise I worry this will count for nothing. 

Amendment 26 is a technical amendment that clarifies the purpose of the provision:

'premises used wholly or mainly as a dwelling' would be amended to 'residential premises'. Amendment 27 inserts a definition for 'residential premises' to ensure it is understood as intended, with 'residential premises' defined as

'premises, or any part of premises, used wholly or mainly as a dwelling.'

In other words, the business could be operating quite merrily away on the ground floor and you could have residents living above who could then be impacted by enforcers going into that part of the premises.

Amendments 28 and 29 are technical amendments that clarify the purpose of their provisions. I thank the Minister for working with me on this. I do think it's important that we clarify where authorised officers can and cannot enter, and I do appreciate, Minister, that you've recognised this as well. Diolch. 

Photo of Julie James Julie James Labour 5:51, 6 December 2022

Just turning first to consider amendment 25, proposed by Janet Finch- Saunders, this would, as she said, place Welsh Ministers under a duty to provide local authorities with sufficient funding to enable them to undertake their enforcement functions under the Bill. I believe this is similar to a change proposed during Stage 2. I've listened again to the points made and, while I understand the Member’s concerns, I just do not agree with her. As I said during Stage 2, the Welsh Government is seeking to reduce the financial burden on local authorities with regard to this legislation as much as possible. We intend to raise awareness and develop guidance to help ensure people understand how the bans affect them. Again, the purpose of this legislation is behaviour change; it is not to increase the number of prosecutions. 

Previous experience of enforcing environmental legislation, for example the carrier bag charge, has shown that effective communications surrounding the introduction can help reduce the need for enforcement activities. We anticipate enforcement activities will be intelligence led and undertaken with an initial focus on bringing rogue businesses into compliance. Many businesses, of course, have already taken steps to remove single-use plastic products from their stock. That said, I appreciate the Member's concerns during this period of very high inflation. I am aware the current budget for local authorities was set when inflation levels were far lower and that authorities continue to face significant pressures. The Minister for Finance and Local Government continues to work closely with Welsh Local Government Association leaders through the finance sub-group and regular meetings as we prepare for the next budget. This will help to understand the pressures and determine if there is any way of further supporting local authorities through flexibility with current sources of funding. I believe this is the correct forum for such discussions to take place. On this basis, I am unable to support amendment 25.

Turning to amendment 26, I am very grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders for raising this important issue during Stage 2 and for agreeing to collaborate with me to hone the legal text of this amendment. Together with the consequential amendments 27, 28 and 29, these work together to clarify what the Bill means when it refers to residential premises and what the powers of entry are for the places where people live. The amendments introduce the label 'residential premises' to describe any premises, or part of a premises, used wholly or mainly as a dwelling. They limit the power of entry in section 9 so that residential premises may not be entered without a warrant issued by a justice of the peace under section 10. For example, in the case of a flat above a shop, the flat could not be entered without a warrant, although the shop could. This makes it clear to enforcement officers that a warrant is required to enter places in which people live. It also protects them against making inadvertently unlawful searches of those parts of a premises that are not dwellings and are used for business purposes.

The amendments to sections 10 and 11 are corresponding and consequential to the amendments to section 9. I therefore do support, Llywydd, amendments 26, 27, 28 and 29 and recommend that Members do the same. Diolch.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:54, 6 December 2022

Janet Finch-Saunders, do you want to respond?

Photo of Janet Finch-Saunders Janet Finch-Saunders Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd, and I thank the Minister once again. It's getting to be quite a habit, this. And just—we'll move to the vote. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 25 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 25. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 28 against. And therefore amendment 25 is not agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 25: For: 26, Against: 28, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4059 Amendment 25

Aye: 26 MSs

No: 28 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

Absent: 6 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:55, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

We'll move now to amendment 26.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Janet Finch-Saunders, is it being moved?

(Translated)

Amendment 26 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 26 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. And therefore amendment 26 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:55, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

We now move to amendment 27.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Is it being moved, Janet Finch-Saunders?

(Translated)

Amendment 27 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 27 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Amendment 27 is therefore agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:56, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

Amendment 28, Janet Finch-Saunders.

(Translated)

Amendment 28 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to amendment 28? There is not. Therefore, amendment 28 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:56, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

Amendment 29, Janet Finch-Saunders.

(Translated)

Amendment 29 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Is there any objection to amendment 29? There is not. Therefore, amendment 29 is agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:55, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

We'll move now to amendment 8, debated as part of group 2. Rhys ab Owen, is amendment 8 moved?

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:56, 6 December 2022

Rhys ab Owen? Thumbs up will do. Or down.

(Translated)

Amendment 8 (Rhys ab Owen) moved.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Yes, amendment 8 is moved. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. And therefore, amendment 8 will be put to the vote. Open the vote on amendment 8. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 42 against. And therefore amendment 8 is not agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 8: For: 12, Against: 42, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Division number 4060 Amendment 8

Aye: 12 MSs

No: 42 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Absent: 6 MSs

Absent: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 5:57, 6 December 2022

(Translated)

That was the last final vote in our Stage 3 consideration. We have reached the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill and I declare that all sections of the Bill are deemed agreed. That concludes Stage 3.

(Translated)

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.