2. Will the Minister provide an update on actions taken since the Senedd passed a motion in July calling on the Welsh Government to consider establishing a basic income pilot amongst workers in heavy industry as part of Wales's transition to a zero-carbon economy? OQ58839

Thank you, Jane Dodds. We are prioritising the basic income pilot for carers, as you know. The evaluation of that pilot will explore potential benefits for care leavers and the wider Welsh population. But the climate change Minister’s officials are leading work to ensure we understand the impacts, challenges and opportunities relating to the transition to a low-carbon economy.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you so much for that response, and may I thank you for your commitment, and your team's commitment, to piloting a universal basic income, and to looking into this? I'd also just like to throw out another fact here in the Senedd: I learnt last week that three out of four active applications to extend coal mining in the United Kingdom are actually here in Wales. So, we really have to move quickly on this issue. It is a little bit disappointing to hear that no further work has been done on that particular aspect of the pilot. But I am pleased to hear that the Minister for Climate Change will be launching a call for evidence on a just transition, including gathering evidence of need for our communities. Because a real, immediate economic safety net needs to be in place for those workers, in the form of a basic income, coupled with a tough approach against coal extraction. They can both safeguard communities and our planet. So, could you tell me and outline the plans that are in place, and the timelines, and how we can get to this just transition through a basic income pilot? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. This is key work in terms of our Net Zero Wales plan, linking it to the plan for 2026. As I'm sure the Member will be aware, there has been a call for evidence that's gone out today by the Minister for Climate Change to test early thinking about how we shape the future work programme, which, of course, is where your call has come in. But I think that call for evidence is going to look at work packages, and inform activity, and, obviously, we want everyone to get involved in it. The just transition framework has to build on an evidence base and research, it has to look at issues like how do we tackle inequalities in terms of a just transition, and it has to maximise integration across all sectors and bodies. But I am aware of a meeting with the Coal Action Network, relating specifically to your question, at the end of November, to discuss basic income and transition to a zero-carbon economy. We've got to understand the issues, look at the impacts, and I do think our groundbreaking Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is the foundation for approaching that just transition. But the call for action will provide these opportunities to feed into these points.

Minister, a number of my constituents in Aberconwy have raised concerns that, in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, you still continue to pursue the idea of a universal basic income. UBI by its very nature is a hugely costly experiment and is no substitute for a genuine decarbonisation plan. Only this morning, we took evidence in committee, whereby the decarbonisation of homes across all sectors is going to be a very costly thing for the Welsh Government to implement. When it comes to UBI, Welsh Government Ministers frequently reference the experience of other countries. However, in Ontario in Canada, the provincial Government there cancelled their basic income pilot scheme in 2018, citing it as a waste of taxpayers' money, and, in Finland, trial results of UBI given to unemployed people found no statistical difference in work status between the recipients and the control group. So, this actually refutes the entire argument that UBI helps people into employment, or that it even helps workers to transition into other work. In light of these results, Minister, will you clarify what lessons you have learnt from these failed UBI schemes around the world, and will you do a u-turn on this, please?

Well, Janet Finch-Saunders, I'm very sad, in a way, that you couldn't have met the young people we met. I believe, actually, we met them in your constituency, in Llandudno recently. We met young people who are now able to take up this basic income pilot. What inspiring young people—care experienced and care leavers, who have been given the opportunity, at long last, in their lives, the respect by the Welsh Government, to be part of a basic income pilot. I have to say, you're on your own on that side of the Chamber as far as the basic income pilot is concerned. You're on your own in terms of the 500 young people who are going to benefit. Obviously, it's up to them if they take part, but there's very good take-up.

But I just want to say that, importantly, we evaluate it—absolutely right. The Member is right to say, 'Well, how are we testing it?' It's early days; it started in July, but we have appointed an evaluation team. It's led by Cardiff University's Children's Social Care Research and Development Centre, and they're drawing on expertise—those who have an understanding of what it means to be in a position as a care leaver in terms of poverty, welfare, homelessness, job opportunities. The pilot's being closely monitored, and evaluation will look at the impacts, but, so far, in terms of the experience and the interaction we've had with young care leavers engaging, I think it's one of the most important policy initiatives that we are doing in this Welsh Government, backed by the majority in the Senedd, I believe. 

Minister, as a trained engineer, I'm always keen to use data to develop an evidence-based approach to policy, and the Welsh Government's basic income trial does present us with that opportunity to test the effects of a basic income within the United Kingdom. Can I ask you how that data will be made available to the likes of me and Jane Dodds, who are keen to promote a universal basic income, but also to the non-believers on the far side of the benches to us, perhaps so they can realise the data and change their tune?

Well, thank you very much, Jack Sargeant, and thank you for your continuing support. Actually, it was from a debate that you initiated in the last Senedd term that we are in this place—that we as a Government took the decision to treat this as a priority. And it is an investment in these young people—it is an investment in their lives, in their futures, and the contributions that—. Julie Morgan, the Deputy Minister for Social Services, and I heard how these young people are so responsibly thinking of ways that they would be able to use this income, and this will all, of course, be tested in terms of the evaluation. 

I'll just finally say that we obviously work very closely with the team who are evaluating. I've already announced who that will be, but it will be young people themselves, and I'll provide detail on the early findings pf the analysis of the pilot, which I will share, obviously, in this Senedd with you all, and I'll issue a written statement in the new year.