Thank you, Llywydd. I understand that you've agreed to group questions 3 and 5, but if I could follow on from my colleague Peredur with his question—

You should ask the question on the order paper. You can read your question—

I will do that, therefore.

It's okay.

3. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the implications for Wales of the Supreme Court ruling regarding Scotland's right to call a referendum on its constitutional future? OQ58827

5. What legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government following the Supreme Court ruling that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to legislate for a referendum on Scottish independence? OQ58834

Thank you for the question. The judgment was specific to the situation in Scotland. I do not consider that it will have any implications for the interpretation of the Welsh settlement. The Supreme Court was very clear that it was not departing from its previous approach to the consideration of such issues.

Thank you for that response. Well, back in March 2021, the First Minister said—and I'm going to quote in English:

'We have to demonstrate to people how we can recraft the UK in a way that recognises it as a voluntary association of four nations, in which we choose to pool our sovereignty for common purposes and for common benefits.'

Those were the words of Mark Drakeford. So, following the Supreme Court that stated that Scotland cannot legislate to hold a referendum on its own constitutional future, and that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the leader of the opposition there, Keir Starmer, have declared that they won't allow Scotland to hold an independence referendum, does the Counsel General believe that the UK is a voluntary association of four nations, and what is the Government here doing to demonstrate to people how it's possible to redraw the UK in a way that shows that it is a voluntary association?

Thank you. You do raise an important constitutional point. And it's very interesting, in Gordon's Brown report, that he very specifically describes the United Kingdom as an association of nations, so in recognition of the make-up of that. That is certainly my belief, as to what the real position is, because, if you have a parliament that elects people, that has a mandate from an election, from the people, then sovereignty cannot be anything other than shared. The point, I think, that we would make is, of course, that we have a constitution that is outdated and is dysfunctional, and that is why, I think, we are having all these constitutional debates, because, as the interim report of the independent commission, who published their report today, has said, what exists at the moment is not working—the status quo is not working. That, in fact, is something that's been repeated consistently by the inter-parliamentary group, which I previously attended and, I think, the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee now attends. On the numerous occasions I was there, the statements were put out, and these were cross-party statements that, basically, the arrangements are not working and there is a need for substantial reform. I think there was a need for a very, very radical reform. I'm considering very carefully the independent commission's interim report, but I'm also considering very carefully other reports, other commentary that is being made, but including the report from Gordon Brown, which does set out a very, very radical critique of the current system, that says very clearly that the status quo does not work, and puts forward a series of principles and proposals in respect of radical reform, one of which is, in fact, the abolition of the House of Lords and the replacement of it. I think there is much in those principles that warrants very serious consideration, and I'm hoping to be able to make an oral statement to this Senedd in January, where we will have the opportunity to actually debate and consider, I think, substantively a lot of these important issues. It's not about the constitution, per se, but the constitution is how power is exercised. It is what affects the lives of people day in, day out. It's important to the quality of life of the people of Wales, and that's why it's important to us, and why we have the commission and why we are having these discussions. 

As Mabon said, questions 3 and 5 have been grouped. Janet Finch-Saunders. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Of course, my original question was what legal advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government following the Supreme Court ruling that the Scottish Parliament does not have the power to legislate for a referendum on Scottish independence. Now, this outcome has huge constitutional significance for Scotland and Wales, I believe. It essentially means that Wales cannot hold an independence referendum without Westminster approval. Indeed, as Professor Aileen McHarg has stated, the union and the UK Parliament are also reserved under the Government of Wales Act 2006, and the approach to whether a Bill relates to reserved matters is the same.  

Every time the independence question has been put to the people of Wales, and it was, most recently, in the 2021 election last year, the party that made those offers came a distant third. The people of Wales have spoken with one voice, saying they want to remain in a strong United Kingdom. So, do you agree with me that, unlike Plaid Cymru, who continue to speak about further devolution and independence on almost a weekly basis, no further resources and time should be wasted on this constitutional question, and that we should now be focusing on using Welsh Government and the parliamentary resources therein on making the best of the powers that we do have? In other words, sorting out our failing health service, sorting out the low standards in education—

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Janet, you need to finish now, please. 

—sorting out our infrastructure, our transport. I could go on and on and on, but he won't let me. 

No. [Laughter.]

Would you not agree with me that we need— 

Thank you, Janet. 

—to start concentrating on the issues—

Thank you. 

—that face the people of Wales and less on this vanity project for Plaid Cymru?  

Well, I believe we are attending to the issues that affect the people of Wales. And you're absolutely right, in terms of your interpretation of what the Supreme Court judgment means with regard to the carrying out of a referendum under the referendums legislation. Where I think you're wrong, though, is in saying that that therefore means that everything is fine and there aren't major constitutional problems and constitutional reform issues that need to be addressed. The purpose of looking at constitutional reform is, firstly, when it is very clear and recognised across parties, by very senior people in all political parties and by many other commentators and members of the public as well, that what we have at the moment is not working, it is not adequate, it is outdated and it needs reform. The reason why these matters are important and why we need to attend to them is because, ultimately, our constitution and our powers is the way in which Government operates is about considering those, about how we can do things better, and about how we can change people's lives for the better. That is governed—[Interruption.]

I'm sorry to hear you respond in that way to what I've just said, because that is why we're having these discussions—that is why they are important. If you thought that discussing issues around constitution is not important, then we wouldn't have the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, we wouldn't have the retained EU law Bill, we would also not have the Bill of Rights legislation that is being proposed, and we would not be consistently talking about the issues that have emerged over the last six years with regard to Brexit. Those are all constitutional matters and they do impact on people's lives. What we are doing is looking at the way in which our relationship with the rest of the UK works, but also how we exercise our powers, how we obtain the powers that we need in order to deliver on the mandates that we get from the people of Wales, how we improve our governance, and how we improve the engagement of the people of Wales within our politics.