2. What action is the Welsh Government proposing to ensure more rigorous employment standards in Welsh fire and rescue services in light of the allegations against South Wales Fire and Rescue Service? TQ700

These allegations reveal appalling and completely unacceptable behaviour that has no place in the fire and rescue service, nor anywhere else. South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority has already announced a review of its own processes and culture. This needs to be truly independent, robust, and comprehensive.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The ITV Wales news story on Monday evening reported that south Wales fire service has had at least two individuals who have fallen short of the exemplary standards promoted by the fire and rescue service. I think we can all agree that their abhorrent behaviour should never, ever be tolerated, and I would like to add my voice to acknowledge the bravery of the victims in coming forward to highlight this and what has happened to them.

The coverage also alleged that south Wales fire service has a culture of cover-up, and these individuals had not been permanently removed from their posts when the incidents first came to light. Instead, they were transferred elsewhere, including to a White Ribbon station. I believe it is true to say that almost every organisation, company or institution will undoubtedly at some point have to deal with staff, or several staff, who fall appallingly short of meeting the values and conduct that are expected of them. These individuals, both who commit acts and those who cover them up, not only do tremendous damage to their victims, but leave long-lasting consequences for their company and co-workers.

I'm conscious that, as you say, the fire service has now launched an independent review of the culture, discipline process, and of any historic cases. But I'm also conscious that full details were not provided of these cases in the coverage, and this might be a case of a failure of proper procedure, rather than a failure of culture in the service. With this in mind, and given what has happened, Deputy Minister, will you outline what discussions you have had with the fire service on this matter? Is it not time that active service personnel undertake regular and continual vetting procedures, similar to those they went through when they were applying for the role, to ensure that the standards expected of them can be maintained throughout their careers? Thank you.

Can I thank Joel James for raising this today? It's right that we have an opportunity to address this on the floor of this Senedd, and I absolutely agree with him that the allegations that were brought to light in the ITV news report were absolutely abhorrent, but you're right that it shouldn't take a news report for action to be taken on these issues as well. You talked about the bravery of the women that have come forward. That is not an easy thing to do. It's a significant step to take. But that shouldn't be a necessary step to take. That behaviour shouldn't exist in the first place, but the support should be there within those organisations to enable people to feel safe and to come forward without fear of repercussions from that.

Actually, I had an urgent meeting with the chair of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority yesterday morning, and made it very clear to him the need for a fully independent and wide-ranging inquiry into these matters. It should be similar to the one that the London Fire Commissioner established to investigate claims of racist bullying, which reported last month. On the points the Member made, I particularly stressed to the chair that this inquiry needs to be headed up by a trusted figure who's wholly independent of the fire and rescue services, such as a barrister, and that its scope must encompass all forms of discrimination, harassment, unacceptable behaviours and cultures. It must be free to inspect any documents and to survey or interview staff, and that its findings must be made public. It cannot be addressed as an isolated incident; it needs to look at the structures that have allowed that to happen and what action needs to be taken to ensure it isn't repeated in the future. I've asked the chair for urgent assurance on these matters, and I'm happy to keep this place updated on that.

I think, in closing to Joel James, what is clear is that we need zero tolerance, not only of this sort of behaviour, but also of cultures and institutions that allow people to be bystanders as well.

The White Ribbon pledge is never to commit, excuse or remain silent about men's violence against women. When the service allowed two abusers to keep their jobs, it broke that promise. Llywydd, I want to pay tribute to the brave women who have spoken out, and my deep disappointment in the service that I've worked closely with on the White Ribbon campaign for many years. We'll see what the investigation finds, but clearly something has gone very wrong here.

First, Gwent Police; now south Wales fire service. Do you agree, Deputy Minister, that people have every right to expect zero tolerance of gender-based violence in all their public services? And what is being done within public sector organisations to identify and deal with offenders? Will you please table a debate on this, with your colleague Jane Hutt, for a workplace strategy based on dignity and respect, because according to the report, any level of either dignity or respect had been completely removed from the females who were employed in this organisation?

I know that, with Jane Hutt, I'm launching a report that will move into this space in January, with the Wales Trades Union Congress. I think it would be an excellent idea if all public sector organisations sent some heads of departments to that launch, so that they could at least learn something and hopefully take that learning back to the workplace. This is an absolute disgrace. It's let people down, and if half or a fraction of what was in that report is to be believed, it is absolutely beyond comprehension.

I absolutely share—well, actually, to say that I share Joyce Watson's disappointment is probably an understatement. The Member raises some really salient points about what I and Jane Hutt and you can do moving forward now, and I'm more than happy to take that up with regard to the debate and actually how we bring people together. You talked about the White Ribbon campaign and your disappointment that they've broken that pledge. In 2014, we were incredibly proud that the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service became the first fire and rescue service in the world to get White Ribbon accreditation, and only last year they declared their 47 fire stations in the region to be safe havens. Now, we've seen that that accreditation has been removed following the publication of these allegations, but I think what it does tell us is that a corporate commitment to this isn't enough; it needs whole-scale cultural change and practices and processes in place that support and enable that as well. You talked about other services, and I think what's clear to me and everybody in here is that we've heard time and time again about bad apples—that 'bad apples' narrative—and it doesn't and it cannot wash. Enough is really enough.

Gender-based abuse and prejudice and hatred towards women in our front-line services are totally unacceptable. These are the services that are supposed to protect us and serve the public, and they are therefore supposed to represent the very best principles in our society. So, we cannot permit a service that has such close contact with the public and that has such a safeguarding role to hold such stereotypical, prejudiced and dangerous views about specific groups in our society, especially as there is increasing evidence that people who hold such prejudiced views act upon them too. The public and these specific groups in particular must have faith in these services—as citizens, as colleagues, and as representatives of the values of our society. The fact that the fire service is no longer listed as a White Ribbon supporter organisation on the White Ribbon website is shocking when you really think about it, that our fire service—or one of our fire services—has had to distance itself from a campaign that seeks to eradicate violence against women by men.

Joyce Watson spoke about the concerning cases in Gwent Police recently. In the wake of those cases, does the Deputy Minister believe that, perhaps, there should not just be an inquiry into these specific cases and this specific service, but perhaps that we need a wider ranging inquiry into the culture and processes of our front-line public services? Could the Deputy Minister perhaps please outline how the most recent violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy will help to prevent situations like this from recurring in our public services? And what do you believe is going wrong here?

I agree with Sioned Williams.

And with the points you raise in terms of—I don't think we can downplay just how shocking this is, but alas, for many of us here, sadly, it's not surprising because we know this sort of behaviour is endemic, not just in workplaces but across society. We've talked before, when we've talked about everyday sexism, misogyny, that it's not all men, but you can probably guarantee that just about all women have experienced some sort of harassment, been on the receiving end of misogyny, or just been made to feel uncomfortable in a place where they should feel safe. So, I think, like I said before, enough is enough. We're at a point now where it cannot continue.

And just in respect of what you said about the fire and rescue service, we're waiting to see the terms of the investigation that the South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority have pledged to undertake, but prior to that, as we've said, we know there are wider problems within the fire and rescue service. There was an independent review of the London Fire Brigade published just last month, which revealed numerous shocking and disgusting instances of racial and sexual harassment, so we can't be sure that they are confined just to one service. Ahead of the ITV news broadcast on Monday evening, I had written to the three fire and rescue authorities in Wales asking for assurances around how they had approached these issues on the back of the London Fire Brigade report. We'll go through the process now of working with South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority in terms of what the parameters of that inquiry will look like, going back to what I said in response to the first question about making sure that it is truly independent and that it doesn't just look at individual allegations, but looks at wholesale culture and process and the support that is in place there. But if that isn't forthcoming, we will consider undertaking such a wholesale review ourselves.

I thank the Deputy Minister.