Item 7 is next, and it's a statement by the Minister for Climate Change on biodiversity. I call on the Minister, Julie James. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In December I attended the UN Biodiversity Conference, known as COP15, to add Wales’s voice to calls to agree an ambitious global framework to turn the tide on biodiversity loss before it is too late. After two weeks of intensive negotiations, I’m pleased to say that the Kunming-Montreal biodiversity framework was formally adopted, setting out four global goals, 23 targets and finance for the next eight years to put nature on a path to recovery. This is a significant and truly positive achievement, with agreement from over 200 countries across the world.

Attending the seventh summit for subnational Governments and cities was one of the key highlights for me at COP15. The summit was dedicated to showcasing the work of subnational Governments and cities on nature recovery, and I was so impressed by the ambition and energy to drive forward action at the local level. We've made some really valuable connections and I am really keen to build on these across a range of work areas to truly deliver at pace. My bilateral meetings with a range of subnational Governments and regions, including Quebec, Catalonia and Paraná State in Brazil, revealed the common challenges we face in tackling biodiversity loss, and some really innovative ways in which we can approach these.

As a partner to the Edinburgh process and signatory of the Edinburgh process, I'm pleased to confirm the adoption of a plan of action on subnational Governments, cities and other local authorities for biodiversity. This important decision means that the UN formally recognises the vital role subnational and local governments play in driving and delivering action to deliver a nature-positive future. 

We will work with RegionsWithNature, a partnership initiative that supports regional and subnational Government officials and other stakeholders to enhance ecosystem restoration, biodiversity conservation and nature-based solutions in their regions. I was delighted to contribute an initial case study on our national peatlands action programme to the RegionsWithNature platform at COP15.

I am pleased the historic Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework agreed the 30x30 target with some minor amendments. These included strengthening place-based rights of indigenous people and local communities. I really welcome this, as I heard first-hand from the Wampis delegation about the potentially negative consequences of new designations of their land. In delivering the overall global framework we really must ensure the voices of local communities help shape and contribute to our approach to becoming nature positive.

Whilst at COP15, I participated in a high ambition workshop, focused on implementing the 30x30 target, sharing the approach to our deep-dive and the recommendations adopted. The workshop also provided an invaluable opportunity to learn from other subnational Governments, such as California and São Paulo, about the approaches they have taken. I’m delighted that this collaborative approach will continue post COP with the creation of a high ambition 30x30 taskforce for subnational Governments, in which Wales will play a very active part.

Unlocking the potential of our designated landscapes will be key to becoming nature positive in Wales. To inform our approach to strengthening nature protection within designated landscapes, I had a valuable joint meeting with Parks Canada and the Scottish Government. I was particularly interested in the approach taken by Parks Canada to understanding the true economic value of the ecosystem services provided by the parks, such as natural flood management and improving water quality. Parks Canada have agreed to share the methodology they have developed with us so that we can understand the true value of our own designated landscapes. Equally, their 'prescription for parks' approach recognises the economic value of nature for our health and well-being through avoided costs to our healthcare systems. We can learn from both approaches and I look forward to developing our partnership with them.    

Another important part of COP15 was the biodiversity and finance day. These conversations on the world stage recognised the need for additional funding to deliver the scale of action required. I raised my concerns about greenwashing and the need to ensure that any additional investment is ethical and benefits our local communities. This view was shared across the subnational Governments, with a call to ensure that companies who have destroyed nature should not then profit from its recovery.

The new global biodiversity framework recognises the role of the whole of society in ensuring we protect biodiversity for the future. Speaking at the conference on the main stage, I reflected on the importance of a Team Wales approach in driving for action across the whole of government and the whole of society. This means action is required by all in our communities, our businesses and across wider society. Team Wales must pull together if we are to ensure a sustainable, healthy and nature-rich Wales.

As part of supporting our Team Wales approach, I will shortly be announcing the funding that will be granted to the successful medium-sized projects as part of our nature networks programme. In addition to action to improve the condition and resilience of our protected sites network, each project is required to support the active involvement of local communities through training, apprenticeships, school engagement or strengthening volunteering bases. Through the programme, we aim to create both resilient ecological networks and networks of people actively engaged with nature. Further announcements on the funding of successful large-scale projects will be made in March.

I fully recognise we need to take ambitious and integrated action to deliver these targets and put nature on the path to recovery. We will implement this global agreement by developing our own legally binding nature targets, underpinned by the new strategic biodiversity action plan. It really is time for team Wales to take centre stage and show what we are capable of—we are stronger together and we are united in our ambitions for the future. Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Llywydd, and wishing you a happy new year and the Minister. So, thank you, Minister. It sounds as though you had a fantastic and rewarding time in Montreal, and I'm sure, like other Members of the Senedd, I would be pleased to hear more about the Parks Canada methodology in due course. Now, as you know, COP15 saw the adoption of the global biodiversity framework on the last day of negotiations, and the aims were really to address biodiversity loss, restore ecosystems and protect indigenous rights. The plan includes concrete measures to halt and reverse nature loss, including putting 30 per cent of the planet and 30 per cent of degraded ecosystems under protection by 2030. So, we do know, Minister, that you are committed to the 30x30 target, and that you have today noted that you will develop legally binding nature targets underpinned by a new strategic biodiversity action plan. So, will the legally binding targets include the 30x30, and when will the regulations be tabled for our consideration? 

Target 7 agreed at COP15 is to reduce pollution risks and the negative impact of pollution from all sources by 2030. Now, last March, our Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee published a report on storm overflows in Wales. It highlighted such horrendous facts as that, by 2020, there were over 105,000 incidents of untreated sewage being dumped into Welsh water courses, up from 14,485 incidents in 2016. In your response to our report, you agreed that reducing impacts from storm overflows is very important and advised that the Welsh Government is focusing on sustainable nature-based solutions to divert and remove as much surface water as possible away from the sewerage systems to increase network capacity. So, how much progress is being made, Minister, on implementing these nature-based solutions to divert and remove surface water from sewerage systems? 

Target 16 calls for us to ensure that people are encouraged and enabled to make sustainable consumption choices and, by 2030, reduce the global footprint of consumption in an equitable manner, halving global food waste, significantly reduce overconsumption, and substantially reduce waste generation in order for all people to live well in harmony with Mother Earth. Now, clearly, by backing my colleague Peter Fox and his Food (Wales) Bill, we could help to achieve that target. And it was just disappointing recently to see at first hand how that was, despite all the hard work from officials within the Commission and, indeed, Peter Fox himself, not supported in any form. So, we do need to see action by you, following unanimous support for the motion in November, which saw the Welsh Parliament vote to see the Welsh Government take several steps, including developing a more self-sufficient food system for Wales by creating a road map towards a food system that's fit for the future and provides communities with a sustainable source of food, but also using procurement levers to create a requirement for supply chains to be free from deforestation, conversion and social exploitation as part of the transition to utilising locally produced and sustainable goods. Now, the question I have for you, Minister, is: what progress have you made on moving forward with actions to address the impacts of Wales's own domestic consumption on the world? 

Finally, it is fair to acknowledge that you do try to be ahead of the game, through publishing the biodiversity deep-dive in October. I am particularly interested in, and supportive of, your plans for the marine environment, including establishing a targeted scheme to support restoration of seagrass and saltmarsh habitats along our coastline, and also the implementation of a spatial approach to marine planning. So, whilst I would appreciate an update on work to protect 30 per cent of our seas, I would be interested to learn whether you heard of any other marine initiatives whilst you were present at COP15 that we may be able to implement here and benefit from. Thank you and diolch.

Thanks very much, Janet. It was amazing to be at COP15, I have to say. You really do come back feeling evangelical about the need to move on this stuff. One of the things that I really wish I could share with all Members here in the Senedd is that, at the entrance to COP15, there was what was called a 'wholly immersive room', where you went in and you had the most incredible film from National Geographic and various other nature film makers from around the world. It was amazing because you felt like you were in the sea or in the grasslands, the way it was done. And then, horrifyingly, it started to tell you all of the things that had disappeared from the films that you were looking at. It was stark. And then it started to put the numbers of species that had disappeared by year around the wall. I'm going cold even thinking about it now. So, you started off with this magnificent planet that we live on and then the destruction that followed. And then, finally, it ended up with a spotlight coming down from the ceiling of each country and then a timeline of the biodiversity loss for each country. I mean, it was horrific, and you could see people being visibly moved by it. I really wish we could get that out to as many people as possible. It really brought home to me the damage we've already done and the urgent need to do something about it. So, the short answer is, 'Yes, we will regulate'. Yes, we will make sure that the 30x30 goals are in law in Wales and that they hold our feet to the fire. And it's not enough for us to say that we will make 30 per cent of the land, the rivers and the seas protected, because we've already done that; we've got the national parks and so on. It's much more important to say what exactly we will do inside those protected areas, what we will do on the borders of the protected areas, and what we will do to follow up from the biodiversity review we've already had, to make sure that nature can, at the very least, stop getting worse, but actually our ambition of course is to reverse it and start to recover.

So, Janet, we will be working very closely with you and others across the Senedd to make sure that the ambitious targets that we put in place are detailed. I know that you want the 30x30 protected, but I know that you don't know any more than I do exactly what that means in each bit of it. So, we will be working to make sure that, in each part of our designated landscapes, we've done a review of that by 2030, and then we've understood, from that review, what needs to be done in that area in order to go forward. It's ambitious to do a review of every area by 2030, but that's one of the targets I'm determined to see, so that that review is meaningful and it holds our feet to the fire—as all of us, not just the Government—to get this done. So, I'm determined to do that. We work with governments around the world—there's lots to share. We'll have to have more sessions than just this one session to tell you about what we're able to share. There's lots of learning around the world, but I'm also very pleased to say lots of learning from us. We are pretty cutting edge in some of the things we do. I was very pleased and proud to present the peatlands recovery programme, which was well regarded around the world. But more—we could do more with our own peatlands; we could spread that out more.

I'm not going to address the food issues because they're in Lesley's portfolio, but we all heard what you said, Janet. You need to bring them up, and I don't have time anyway. But in terms of the other two things that you raised, on the marine environment, absolutely we will protect that, absolutely we will be renewing our approach to the spatial protection. But, yet again, we want to know what that means. What is a marine conservation zone? What exactly is conserved in it? What can you and cannot do in that? You know, does it mean completely protected, does it mean partially protected—what does it mean? And I want to get to the point where, if I said to you 'marine conservation zone' or 'designated landscape', and you were Mr and Mrs Jones of Preseli, you would be able to tell me what the heck that meant. Because, at the moment, we absolutely cannot. So, we will get there. We will get to the point where we know what each of those means. We will have done that alongside our own communities, so that our fisher folk and our farmers and everybody else understands what we're doing and why, and why it's important for them as much as it is for any of the rest of us. And we will do that rapidly, so that, when we bring the Bill forward for this Senedd, we have the targets in place and we have the environmental governance body, with teeth, to hold our feet to that fire. And I'm determined to do it. We will learn from what's been done already, and, I tell you what, it was so good to go there, because it made me even more determined to do it.

Thank you, Minister. I was going to say that it's wonderful to hear you speaking so evangelically about this, but it's not just 'wonderful', it's very powerful. It's a new year, new hope. I genuinely mean that. I think there are genuinely things to be welcomed in this statement. Certainly, that's in stark contrast with the crisis that we're facing. We need hope—of course we need hope—and that's particularly true because of how exceptionally poor the situation is, as you've already been outlining already today. Biodiversity is declining at a greater rate now than at any time in the history of humanity. We talk about the different statistics very often, but that is—. It frightens me in so many ways. The average number of indigenous species in the majority of major habitats on land has declined at least 20 per cent since the beginning of the twentieth century; 41,000 species worldwide are under threat of extinction; one in six species is facing extinction in Wales; we often hear in the Siambr that natural ecosystems have decreased by 47 per cent on average, compared with previous estimates; and we've also heard that approximately 75 per cent of surface area has been significantly changed, and over 85 per cent of wetlands have been lost to date.

A number of the points that I wanted to raise have already been raised by Janet. I don't want to rehearse those points, but I have heard your responses. I genuinely welcome the fact that you attended COP15 and I welcome the fact that, given that you are holding this biodiversity deep-dive as well—. It is good to see that the Welsh Government, at last—. I think we are now on the same page. Certainly, your enthusiasm for this issue is so good to hear again.

You yourself have said that action is the key thing in all of this. So, can you tell us more as regards driving the work on the content of legislation—you have made promises regarding nature targets, about governance—in terms of a clear timetable for that? Is there anything specifically that you could tell about that timetable at the moment? 

And in terms of what you said about Québec and the sub-national government, I think that work is really exciting. So, what partners do you think will be most important for us in the initial phase and as the work progresses? That's something that could be transformational, I think, in so many ways.

I agree with what you said, certainly, about how important it is to safeguard the rights of communities such as the Wampis. That's certainly something that I would agree with.

And finally—I don't know what 'immersive' is in Welsh—on the immersvie film that you discussed and how shocking it was to see and experience how wonderful the world is and then to see the decline and the threats that face us, is there any way that we could try to see whether there is a way of creating that kind of immersive experience, particularly for schoolchildren in Wales?. I say 'children', but we do need to take action before those children grow up. Is there any way—? Are there other governments worldwide that are trying to emulate that experience in some way for people in the community too?

Diolch, Delyth. [Inaudible.] the film, horrifying though it was. Actually, I really do want to see if we can get it, or a version of it, here. There will be issues around copyright and so on. It was National Geographic, so I just want to acknowledge that. That's, obviously, a profit-making company. But we can have a look to see if we can do it here. And if we can't, then I'm sure we can do something with our Welsh biodiversity.  But I do think the stark reality of the numbers, having looked at this beautiful planet that we have, the numbers ticking up of the extinctions across the world, and then, watching it in your own country and seeing the comparison was stark. So, it is more than just the horrifying nature of what's happening here in Wales; it was the global extent of it. It really brought it home, and it was a very clever way to get delegates going in to really concentrate on it as well. So, it was quite something. 

There are several things in what you said there that I can add to. So, first of all, we will have to work with a group of experts on constructing a review of designated landscapes, and marine and riverscapes as well, so that we have a review that properly looks at what are they trying to protect; is it still worth protecting; is it working; and what would need to happen in this particular designated landscape. And if you think about that—it sounds easy to say—but if you think about the scale of that, we've got a national park, which is a huge area, or we've got a site of special scientific interest, which is sometimes very small. Are they even protecting the right things anymore? Some of the SSSIs were put in place ages ago and are now, frankly, car parks. What are we doing? So, I think a review of the whole thing. 

Also, SSSI, what is that to Mr and Mrs Jones in Preseli? Maybe I shouldn't keep using those; I'll find some other people to use, but you know what I mean. What does that mean? What we mean is: this is a landscape in which there is something worth protecting, and we are protecting it by doing this. I just think better language, better descriptions, a better understanding of it, and it also encourages other people to come in—volunteers, people who live around there can have a better understanding of what this landscape actually is and what it's protecting.

Also, what do we mean by protection? Most of our land is farmed. We don't want it to stop being farmed. We want the farmers to protect the way of life that they have and the biodiversity that's there. But, maybe, in some places in Wales we need to have land that isn't farmed, that's actually allowed to have just nature on it. Maybe—I don't know. That's the kind of thing we'll have to consider. Same for the seas. A marine conservation zone does not prevent most fishing. What does it prevent at the moment? We'll have to have a proper conversation about what do we actually mean by this. What is protected? Are there places in the sea where, actually, nothing should happen, or, what do we mean? And the truth is, we don't know. We should know. The definitions that existed in the first place meant something, but, over time, they've degraded. And that just happens. So, now is a great time to review all of that and put a new twenty-first century understanding of what that protection means.

So, we do want to work with you in the immediate future to understand what the review might look like, how we might conduct it, and what we think the outcomes will be. And, as we go through the review, to start to put the protections in place. It's not enough for me to say in eight years, 'Gosh, look, I know how terrible it all is.' That's not what I want at all. So, as we do it, and we select what goes first, we need to start action plans coming in on the back of it. Sometimes, that will be de-designating this landscape. Sometimes it will be, 'Actually, the SSSI is here, but it should be there, because that species has come over here now or whatever.' We've all got examples of that. So, we need to have a good, wide-ranging, not scared to have a real look at what we've got review, and we need that to be accompanied by an action plan that comes behind, where we have a good consultation across Wales about what do we want, what will people put up with, what will they live with, what will they get behind, what will they want to do. There's no point in me saying all of this if 50 per cent of Wales all go, 'Oh, I'm not doing that.' So, we have to do both together.

What came out of COP15 for me was just how important it is to bring the people with you. You can't say, 'Oh, never mind the people, let's do this.' You absolutely have to bring the people with you. And the Canada national parks are really interesting. They own all of the land in the national park. Obviously, we're not in that position, but in the past—not anymore—in the past, they cleared people off it, including the indigenous people who were very angry, not surprisingly. So, the Cree nation were there in numbers at the conference, and being treated entirely differently now by Canada of course, as an independent nation, talking about their way of protecting their lands and what they know that we simply don't know. And that's the other bit, isn't it? We could say that across Wales. The people who live there now, they probably know a lot more about it than some of us do. So, it's about harnessing the power of the indigenous people, whether those people are in a developed nation or not in a developed nation, about what they know about the land and what we need to do. And, actually, that's a real lesson, because the parks are so much better in Canada now they have done that than they were before, and they've got loads of stats to show it. And I'm sure we've got similar things to do here.

I'm very pleased we received this statement today. The biodiversity crisis is at long last getting the same attention as environmental change and global warming, both of which are obviously affecting the biodiversity. Along with the Minister, I'm very pleased that the Kunming-Montreal biodiversity framework was formally adopted. This is a significant and truly positive achievement, with agreement from over 200 countries across the world. I am pleased that the new global biodiversity framework recognises the role of the whole of society in ensuring we protect biodiversity.

My concern, which I have raised previously, is the loss of high-end predators, allowing animals lower down the food chain to expand dramatically, decimating those further down the food chain. I only have to mention rats as an animal that has grown massively because of the loss of its predators. How is the Welsh Government going to ensure that we have equilibrium, allowing all species to prosper?

Yes, thank you very much, Mike. You have raised it before, and I've said before, haven't I, about the Yellowstone project. If you watch the reintroduction of the wolves and what happens to the landscape, it's just an amazing transformation as the ecosystem goes back into equilibrium. So, it's very important for us to understand what that equilibrium should look like and to do that judiciously where that's necessary. We've already done that with some of the species in Wales. So, we have eagles and kites again in Wales, which we certainly didn't have before; the osprey project similarly. We are very interested to understand what does this ecosystem need and what should it look like, and then what are we trying to restore it to. I'm sorry to use this analogy, in a way, but it's a little bit like if you were restoring a period property—to what period are you restoring it?

We've had people on the landmass of Great Britain for thousands and thousands of years, so 'wild' is not something that it's been for a very long time. All our species are adapted to live alongside human beings—all of them, without exception. There's no mythical wild place to go back to, so the point is: what are we restoring it to, and how are we helping nature to adapt? As you put it, Mike, that whole ecosystem with a high-end predator involved, that's very important, but sometimes the high-end predator is us, of course, and we do need to take that into account.

Can I just begin by not only welcoming the statement, but genuinely welcoming the leadership that you, Minister, and Welsh Government have shown in this? It was great that you were out there, that you were not just out there, but actively engaged in those discussions, both on an international perspective, but also domestic perspective as well, and showing some of the things like the peatlands project in Wales, where we can actually show some examples of where we can lead the way as well.

We do have a real opportunity here. I'm taken by the Minister's passion, as always. She spoke at an event in the Senedd before she went off to COP15. It was very clear there, and you were well over the brief, but you've come back, as you say, evangelical about this, looking for environmental governance now with teeth, which is good to hear, and meaningful targets on the back of COP15 on a domestic basis. You know that the non-governmental organisations have broadly welcomed not just your involvement out there, but also what was discussed and what was agreed out there, but now they're looking to see how this is going to be translated into a Welsh context. So, Minister, can I ask you, where do you see the greatest challenges now in taking this forward with the urgency that's needed, with the ambition that's needed, and how do you do that in real partnership with landowners and farmers, but also NGOs, statutory bodies and so on? 

And just as I sit down, can I just mention Lyme bay—a no-take zone for fisheries? It was one of the most unpopular decisions at the time ever for the Minister who took it, Jonathan. Now all the fishermen look at it and say, 'What a success that was.'

Absolutely, Huw. Yes, thank you very much for that. The event that I spoke at just before I went, where I still had a cold—some things are always with us—that was great, and I actually met with the RSPB while I was there, and sat in the very chairs that the piece was from on that night, to discuss with them a partnership across the whole of Great Britain for some of the habitats that we need, which is really, really important. And we took the book of voices with us, and we presented it to the young people of Quebec, which was great as well. Actually, it was Wales in Canada Year while I was there, and I was there in the closing week, so we did a few really great projects as part of the Wales in Canada thing that had an environmental theme, but also an art and culture theme, and we used the book of voices for that, so we've passed that on to them already and we got a lot of photographs and so on to pass on.

But, in terms of the biggest challenge, it's pretty straightforward what the biggest challenge is, and that's the finance. So, the amount of money that we need to be able to invest in all of this to do what we really want to do is enormous, and I don't have it. So, the big challenge—and there was a whole day devoted to this, and we all went to lots of different workshops and all the rest of it, it was really interesting stuff—but the big challenge for us, and I raised this on the main stage as well, is to get the finance into Wales without the greenwashing. And that's a concern right across the globe. So, how do we construct a trading scheme, if you like, where people can invest their money in Wales in a sustainable way, that gets the investment we need and want for our landowners, our land managers, our wildlife and so on, and does not get the investment we very clearly do not want for non-native species or for land takeovers, or for whatever? How do we hit that sweet spot? We are not alone in struggling with this, and it was great to work with the other nations about what they've done so far, and so on. I spoke on one platform where I had the World Bank and one of the big business communities as speakers as well, and we had a Q&A between us on how this might work. Because you can see that the big banks are now getting interested in this as a viable investment product, in a way they weren't 10 years ago. They absolutely are getting there.

The other big issue is the rallying cry. Net zero, for all its flaws, has become a big rallying cry for the climate. One of the sadnesses about COP15 was that we didn't get the nature positive thing agreed. But, I think we're still pushing it, and the sub-national summits agreed it, so we can still push it, but we need that rallying cry, don't we, to go with it, so that people understand what it is they're trying to do and they can grasp it just from the branding, if you like. And then we need to make that into reality on the ground.

So, the big challenge, without a shadow of a doubt, is negotiating that financing field, and I will be meeting with UK and Scottish Ministers very shortly to discuss how we're going to try to do that in the UK and how we're going to discourage the kind of greenwashing that we see. And also how we're going to encourage companies that are trying to do the right thing to do an even better thing. So, to do that, we need to have done the review I spoke about and we need to know what we want in each part of Wales, so we can say, 'Well, actually, we know we want this, so fund that with your scheme. Don't be coming in and doing something that you might think is fine, but actually we know is not what we want.' So, that is a serious challenge, not only for Wales but for the globe. And I think that COP15 made a real step forward in that global finance system to allow that to happen. But, there's a long way to go.

Finally, Carolyn Thomas.

I'd like to commend all that you do and the priority that's given to nature and biodiversity in Wales. It's really heart-warming. I'd just like to talk about nature-based solutions regarding flooding, the attenuation of water, and beavers. So, Eurasian beavers are native to Wales, to Britain, and have been living wild in Wales since 2013. I know somebody has introduced one quite locally to me that has been caught on camera. Recent evidence has shown that beavers are now breeding in the wild, most notably in the Dyfi catchment. They provide ecological, environmental and economic benefits. However, the protection that beavers in Wales are offered is patchy and doesn't adequately protect them from persecution nor does it enable their effective management. As the UK is a signatory to the Bern convention, it would seem that Wales now has a legal duty to protect beavers as well under that convention, and this has been acknowledged in England and Scotland, where beavers are now protected. So, I was wondering what steps is the Welsh Government considering to ensure the protection and effective management of beavers, and will NRW be directed to assist with the successful re-establishment of them in Wales and your thoughts on that. Thank you. 

Yes, thanks very much, Carolyn. This is something we've long been interested in and I absolutely acknowledge your interest in it as well. This will have to be part of the review, because absolutely beavers need, probably, to be introduced in some rivers. There will be others, though, where they don't need to be introduced, and we need to understand what the ecosystem looks like now. So, this is one of the big problems of interfering with ecosystems, isn't it? We don't know what equilibrium looks like for a lot of our places and we don't really understand what will happen. So, it's interesting to see and try and control a little bit how we roll these programmes out.

So, the red kite programme, which I've mentioned before, has been an absolute runaway success in Wales. When I was growing up, there were no red kites in Wales and now you pretty much see them everywhere, and isn't that great? But, there was a lot of concern when they were first introduced that their natural prey had gone and that they'd pick up lambs and all the rest of it. That hasn't proven to be right. The same is happening with beavers; people are very concerned about it. So, what we need to understand is what that particular watercourse needs to get it back into good conservation status and what the beavers will or won't contribute to that. And we know now that renaturalising rivers is one of the biggest things we can do.

I opened the Four Rivers for LIFE project down in Carmarthenshire—one of which is in the Llywydd's constituency, actually—and what we're doing with that project is renaturalising four rivers down in west Wales. What I mean by that is that over many, many years, human beings have straightened the rivers and shored up their banks and made them flow faster and that's not very conducive to wildlife, but it also causes flooding and all kinds of other issues. So, we're basically putting the meander back into the Cleddau and various other rivers. Beavers might well thrive in that environment, whereas in an environment where the river is enclosed and running fast, they most certainly will not. So, it's about making sure we get the right scheme in the right place with the right understanding of it.

Partly funding things like the Four Rivers for LIFE project—which is the last European-funded project that will happen in Wales, which I was a little bit heartbroken about, I will confess—will be really important, because we'll get the data from that to understand what that ecosystem actually needs in order to get back into equilibrium. I'm absolutely certain that that will include beavers and other such animals that have disappeared from Wales.

Thank you to the Minister. I know I'm not meant to say something like this, but on a dreary, dark January evening, I've been quite inspired by that statement and the questions and all the contributions. Good luck to all of you on that work and thank you for bringing some of your evangelism back from Canada to us here. 

Thank you to all of you.

The meeting ended at 18:31.