Item 13 is next, the initial consideration debate on the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Counsel General to move the motion, Mick Antoniw. 

Motion NDM8178 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26C.18:

1. Agrees that the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill should proceed as a Consolidation Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. Six months or so have passed since I introduced the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. At that time, members of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee expressed their enthusiasm to scrutinise this historic piece of legislation—the first piece of legislation where the Senedd plays a formal part in consolidating Welsh law. Certainly, the committee took up the opportunity to discuss the Bill, leading to the publication of its report on 23 December. I'm pleased to put on record today my sincere thanks to the Chair, to the committee members and to the committee staff for their work and for their time. As well as considering the Bill and the supplementary documents, which come to more than 500 pages, they've also looked at evidence that I've submitted, the drafters of the Bill and stakeholders. This is reflected in the report itself, which proposes recommendations with regard to the Bill itself, as well as considering some wider issues related to the consolidation of legislation. We have a great deal to consider and learn from the report following the initial consideration of the committee of this first consolidation Bill.  

Llywydd, I want to focus today on whether the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill should proceed as a consolidation Bill. The committee's report contains 14 recommendations and five conclusions, many of which bear directly on this question, and it is the second recommendation that commands our immediate attention, for it recommends that the Bill should proceed as a consolidation Bill. And this recommendation is supported by three of the committee's conclusions, 1, 3 and 4, which declare satisfaction with the Bill in terms of its scope, the correct consolidation of existing legislation in accordance with Standing Orders, and the clarity and consistency of the consolidation. I'm delighted that the committee reached these conclusions and are of the view that the Bill should proceed.

Now, since my time is limited, I'd just like to quickly focus on a few other recommendations that are of more direct relevance to the motion and the future progress of this Bill, and, of course, I will in due course be writing in detail in response to each of the recommendations with those points. I'm happy to confirm that we have now secured all Minister of the Crown consents, which was the subject of recommendation 1. I wrote to the committee last week to provide the clarification regarding section 2(3) of the Bill, requested in recommendation 10 of the report. I believe that the regulation-making power in that section provides for a satisfactory consolidation. 

Recommendation 12 asks for detailed information as soon as possible on the subordinate legislation that'll be needed to implement the consolidation, and my officials are developing an implementation plan with timescales, and this is being discussed with partners interested in the legislation. So, in light of the report's fifth conclusion, I'd like to note that, throughout the Bill's development, Cadw has engaged with partners, stakeholders and members of the public by circulating regular updates, holding workshops and attending briefing sessions. Now, this work will continue and intensify during the implementation of the legislation. Some secondary legislation will need to be remade, and guidance and websites will have to be updated, and all of this will take time. We accept therefore that a clear implementation timetable, incorporating the required secondary legislation, is desired as soon as possible. I hope that answers the particular aspect of that recommendation. 

I won't go through the remaining recommendations now, since either they treat matters of detail, concern the consolidation process more generally and therefore require my further consideration—and, as I've said, I will be writing in detail on some of these points—or they are, in fact, addressed to the Senedd Business Committee; I think two of them specifically are. So, I'll write to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee regarding all of the recommendations for the Welsh Government in short order, but I will perhaps pause here to allow others to contribute. And again, with my thanks once more to the committee and all the Members of the Senedd who've taken time to consider this Bill and the committee's report on what is, really, the first of our major consolidation pieces of legislation. I think this is a really important step forward for the Senedd. Diolch, Llywydd. 

I now call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Hello, again. [Laughter.] Neil Diamond, I think—'Hello Again'.

I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate as we, the Senedd, undertake our first consideration of a Welsh consolidation Bill, proposed by the Welsh Government, on Welsh historic environment law.

As the responsible committee for considering consolidation Bills, we were tasked with determining whether the Bill should proceed through the Senedd as a consolidation Bill. Our aim was to satisfy ourselves: that the scope of the consolidation is appropriate; that the relevant enactments have been included within the consolidation exercise; that the consolidation exercise is correct and the Bill only changes relevant enactments to the extent allowed by our Standing Orders; and, finally, that the Bill consolidates the law clearly and consistently. Before I say any more, I will confirm that we have concluded indeed, as the Minister said, that the Bill should proceed as a consolidation Bill.

We thank all those, including committee members, who helped inform our consideration of the Bill, including representatives of the Law Commission. Stakeholder concerns were raised with the Counsel General, and others, as outlined in our report. We are particularly grateful to the Counsel General and the Welsh Government legislative counsel for their constructive and quality engagement, and I look forward to receiving the Counsel General’s full written response to our report in due course. Our report focuses on matters that we believed to be key to our role in recommending to the Senedd whether the Bill should proceed as a consolidation Bill. Now, as Members will know, when the Bill was introduced to the Senedd last July, the UK Government had not yet provided the necessary consent for some provisions in the Bill. So, we asked the Counsel General to provide Members with an update this afternoon, and we welcome the confirmation that all the ministerial consents have now been received.

In trying to answer the question of whether the scope of the Bill is appropriate, we considered: the changes made on the recommendation of the Law Commission; the understanding of the current law and the Welsh Government’s reasoning for making changes; the changes being made to provisions in law introduced by the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2016; and the legislation that has been excluded from the consolidation exercise. As regards the changes made to existing law on the recommendation of the Law Commission, I will confirm for the record that we are satisfied with these changes. We welcome the fact that the Welsh Government and Cadw undertook a form of pre-introduction consultation. It's somewhat unfortunate that this pre-introduction work was undertaken at that time, on terms that meant that the Counsel General could not then consider it appropriate to make public the full details, but we understand that. But this is an aspect we're keen to learn from. So, our third recommendation is that the Welsh Government, and any other relevant arm's-length body, should undertake pre-introduction work with the known objective and expectation in future that full details will be made public at the same time that the relevant Bill is laid before the Senedd.

Moving on to changes that this Bill makes to provisions introduced by the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2016, the 2016 Act is the only Act being consolidated through the Bill that does not pre-date devolution in Wales; the Senedd itself scrutinised and passed this Act only six years ago. Now, we do not object to what the Bill proposes in this regard. However, we believe that such changes should be highlighted to the Senedd in a more transparent way, as we state in recommendation No. 4.

As well as paying close attention to what is in the Bill, we also took a keen interest in what is not in the Bill, in particular the exclusion of marine historic environment law. We are satisfied with the explanations provided by the Counsel General and his officials for why this decision has been made. However, we have recommended in recommendation 5 that, where the Welsh Government has taken a decision to deliberately exclude relevant law from a consolidation Bill, full reasoning should be provided in the explanatory material accompanying the Bill, including any justification based on legislative competence, and where the act of consolidating would involve more than what is permitted by Standing Order 26C. Many of these now are learning processes from the exercise we've been through.

Before closing, I would like to briefly mention two matters that are always of keen interest to my committee—the Government’s regulation-making powers and the importance of the Senedd’s role in making law for Wales. Through the Bill, the Welsh Government is giving up some regulation-making powers that it currently holds. At a time when concerns have been raised across parliaments about the balance of power tipping unfavourably towards governments and away from legislatures, we welcome the fact that the Government has identified what it considers to be unnecessary Executive powers. Conversely, the Bill also creates new regulation-making powers. Sections 81 and 163 of the Bill both contain new Henry VIII powers. In section 2(3) there is a new regulation-making power that will enable historic environment law to apply to buildings that have not previously been subject to such law. We concluded that further clarity on this new power is needed and, in recommendation 10, we asked the Counsel General to clarify whether section 2(3) of the Bill would still be compliant with human rights without the new regulation-making power. So, I thank the Counsel General for responding to this recommendation in the letter that was sent to us last Thursday, and for providing a very welcome explanation and clarification. The Counsel General has told us that, whilst it is the Government’s view that section 2(3) of the Bill would still be compliant with human rights without the new regulation-making powers, the Government also believes that the power strengthens the compliance of section 2(3). So, I also welcome the Counsel General’s further explanation as to why the new drafting constitutes a minor change to the law.

As for the importance of the Senedd’s role in making Welsh law, the Counsel General believes that the Senedd should revisit its own Standing Orders, so that a proper attempt can be made to ensure that efforts to consolidate Welsh law are not subsequently and inadvertently undone. The Counsel General has acknowledged that it is not just the Welsh Government that can bring forward legislative proposals in Wales, so, for that reason, in our recommendation 13, we call on the Business Committee to consult with Members of the Senedd, with Senedd committees and the Senedd Commission when conducting any review of the Senedd’s Standing Orders that relate to new requirements or restrictions on how the Senedd considers legislative proposals within a consolidated area of law.

Llywydd, we recognise the importance of the Bill as the first of its kind for the Senedd and for Welsh law, not least because of the practical impact that it will have in making Welsh law available in both official languages, in improving accessibility to the law that applies in Wales, and in contributing to better access to justice in Wales.

The Bill marks the start of this Welsh Government’s ambitious plans for the consolidation of Welsh law, and it is indeed an endeavour that should be welcomed by this Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'd just like to thank the Chair of the LJC committee for quite eloquently removing 99.9 per cent of my speech, so thank you for that. My contribution, Llywydd, will be extremely short, because I don't think we need to go over old ground.

Now, I did take part in the scrutiny of this Bill, and I'd just like to pay tribute to the Counsel General for his attendance at committee, and the openness of Welsh Government in engaging with the LJC committee. It's very well appreciated, and your attendance at the committee is always appreciated. And I know I and colleagues enjoyed getting into the nitty-gritty of this. So, it's the first consolidation Bill of its type going through the Senedd, and I think it's gone quite smoothly to date.

As you said, Counsel General, it's about consolidating law to make it more accessible. In this instance, the Bill is doing that, and I think that we've come to a good position, I believe, here. We took very detailed evidence from the Law Commission, and, when the Law Commission provided that fantastic evidence, I think I was sold, so I don't think there's any more to add there. But I also think it's very important for us to remember that we owe it to the people of Wales to produce legislation that is understandable, that it is of high quality and relevance to the people here, and I think that this consolidation Bill does just that.

I'd also like to stress the importance of the Counsel General seeking consent from UK Government Ministers across in Westminster, and, as you've confirmed, you have done that, so that takes another part out of my speech. So, as I said, I would just like to thank you, Counsel General. So, at this time, Llywydd, the Conservative Party will be supporting this going through the Senedd as a consolidation Bill. Diolch.

Thank you very much to the committee and the Chair for the work that they've done, and thank you to the Counsel General for bringing this Bill forward.

We welcome the introduction of this Bill to create a consolidated, accessible and modernised legislative framework for the conservation of Wales's historic environment that will better reflect the dynamics of the devolution landscape. We hope this will make the people of Wales feel more engaged with our rich and diverse national history, and better able to contribute to conversations on how we seek to preserve and memorialise our past. Increasing the availability of bilingual legislation is essential to realising this ambition, and, in this respect, we are pleased that the Bill will address the shortcomings identified in the current statute book.

There are a few things I would appreciate further clarification on. Could the Minister provide assurances that the removal of the provision for the establishment of an advisory panel for the Welsh historic environment, as featured in the 2016 Act, will not compromise the availability of expert and impartial advice to Welsh Ministers on the future historical conversion measures? Would the Minister provide further details on why planning policy provides greater protection to the archeological heritage of Wales compared to the provisions contained in the 1979 Act for the creation of archeological areas? And finally, can the Minister give assurances that increasing the availability of bilingual legislation will be a central aim of the future of Welsh law programme in future consolidation measures? Diolch yn fawr.

The Counsel General to reply now—Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. Can I first of all thank all those who have participated for their contribution, and can I thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for the very, very long session we had going through the Bill and the very detailed scrutiny of all those sections? It was an important process, and, can I just say, going through it myself, and having to answer the detail on each of the points that were being scrutinised, it actually showed how important it is to have a consolidated Bill, because of how much easier it is to have one piece of legislation where everything is in it and you can go through it in a rational structure? So, I know that it will be something of considerable benefit and significance in the future. So, it was a very important session.

As I've said, I will write in detail, obviously, to the various points and the various recommendations that were made. If I perhaps just deal with a couple of the last points that were made, of course, in terms of the removal of the advisory panel, I don't think that will have any impact, and, of course, we have given consideration to changes that we need to make in the future with regard to allowing instead of just oral evidence, written evidence as well. Again, in terms of the issue of bilingualism and so on, I think you know that the position of Welsh Government is fully supportive of that. And within the educational process in terms of Welsh law, there was one point—I can't read my own handwriting that I made, so I hope if I've missed something I will cover it in the letter that I do send to you. 

In terms of the recommendations, what they actually do highlight is, of course, first, that consolidation is very much a learning process for this Senedd, for this Parliament, in terms of the consolidation process. So, the points that have been raised in terms of marine exclusion, the reasons, again, those that were scrutinised in committee, are all things that we will think about. I hope the reasoning why we couldn't go down that particular road—. We do recognise that there is a need for the consolidation of law in the maritime area; it's just it didn't fit in within, I think, what we had to do now, and there were complications that I think would have complicated the consolidation process. Again, the point you raise in terms of pre-introduction work and that being public, of course, that is recognised as well. 

So, I think one of the things that will happen, of course, as we go along, is that there will be a reflection on how the consolidation process—. It has been an extremely important learning—[Interruption.] Please, yes.

I think there has been a learning exercise, obviously, through this, and obviously it's been quite a detailed and time-consuming piece of legislation as well, largely because it's the very first of its kind. But also that's taking up capacity that the Welsh Government could be doing other legislation with, and there are a lot of commitments that have been made by the Welsh Government in recent years, things like the clean air Act, for example, that we're still waiting to come forward. How are you going to make sure that you get the balance right between these consolidation Bills and freeing up those resources to do the other important pieces of legislation that the people of Wales are expecting us to deliver?

Thank you for that. It's a very important point, because it is a balancing exercise, isn't it? We have a very active, very demanding, legislative process, our own legislative programme, and, of course, we also have the UK Government's legislative impact through their own legislation LCMs, as we've seen to quite a considerable extent today. I think it's a balance. I think the annual reports that I produce in terms of accessibility will highlight that there should be a flow of consolidation, and I think what we have to keep in mind, of course, is that consolidation is something that is not happening quickly, but we are in for it for the long haul in terms of (1) the way we legislate in the future, but also ensuring that we carry on and we prioritise and identify that legislation. So, this will carry on into the next Senedd, the Senedd after and so on.

I think what we will take from this particular process is learn from it because we will have a major consolidation piece that, hopefully, will be forthcoming, which will be the planning consolidation. And as I understand it, the English part of it alone is 400 pages, so we've got 400 pages in English, probably 400 in Welsh. It was a long process. But it will be intensely valuable. The whole planning process being consolidated into one place, I think, will be of great significance. So, thank you again for that input. I hope the explanations I've given, and, of course, they will be ongoing, in terms of the detail and perhaps even further scrutiny—. The Bill should proceed as a consolidation Bill, and I'm sure the Senedd will want to allow that to happen. We're one step closer to giving Wales accessible, bilingual legislation for the protection and management of our precious historic environment. Diolch yn fawr.

The question is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections. And therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.