2. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the Welsh Rugby Union regarding the claims of a sexist culture reported by the BBC? TQ714

Can I thank James Evans for that question? I've met with the WRU twice in the last two days on the immediate actions that it must take to address the allegations set out in this BBC investigation. 

I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for your answer. I could have addressed this question to the Minister for Social Justice earlier as well. The recent and developing reports about the Welsh Rugby Union are deeply alarming. We've been told that, at the heart of the organisation, there is a toxic culture of sexism. We've heard allegations that a male employee made a comment in front of a senior member of staff about raping a female colleague. It's grotesque and it's unacceptable behaviour for anybody to make. As somebody who played rugby in a club that actively promotes and develops the women's game, and encourages young girls and women to play our national sport, it makes me sick to think that there are people who would foster a toxic culture like this within the WRU.

I want to applaud all those who have come forward to expose these deep-rooted problems within the union. It's obvious that there is need for immediate and transparent action to be taken to tackle these huge problems. There should be no hiding places for anybody who carries out this foul behaviour or for those who protect or condone it. Our society has no place for discrimination or violence against women. Minister, can you assure me and this Chamber that you're doing everything that you can to make sure that the administration of the Welsh Rugby Union does all that it needs to to investigate these allegations, and make sure that you will hold the leadership of the Welsh Rugby Union accountable for the toxic environment that it has created at the heart of Welsh rugby?

Again, can I thank James Evans for those very powerful comments, which I would associate myself with? And can I start by making some general points in response? Firstly, the issues raised by the BBC investigation programme are without doubt devastating, and I would like to reiterate that we recognise the courage that it took to speak out after experiencing any form of harassment—to do that publicly on the programme that we saw, I think should be commended. Now, last year, as you know, as a Government, we published our national violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, which clearly sets out our ambitions to make Wales the safest place in Europe to be a woman, and that includes in the workplace. Now, the Welsh Government is not going to be a bystander to abuse, and we are committed to tackling harassment and bullying head on, because women and girls have the right to be safe in all aspects of their lives.

Now, on the specifics, as the First Minister stated here in the Chamber yesterday, we need to see urgent and transparent action that helps restore confidence in the WRU itself. And that requires public recognition on the part of the WRU of the scale and the nature of the issues that were aired in the television programme BBC Wales Investigates on Monday evening. Now, over recent days, I've been engaging with the WRU on the immediate actions that it must take to address these allegations and how it is providing a safe environment for its staff and wider stakeholders that is free from harassment and abuse of all kinds. I note the comments made by the chief executive in the media yesterday that they had fallen short in presenting Welsh rugby to the world and they are working on the necessary changes immediately to ensure that this is a sport that we can again all be proud of and that recognises the importance of gender equality and creating an environment that is free from abuse.

I met the chief executive again this morning, and I stated clearly our expectations for urgent action that will restore the trust of staff, players, supporters, parents and children in his organisation. I pressed for specific examples of what they are looking to implement to ensure the safety of those working for the WRU. And I was advised that these now include employing a people director, refreshing their HR policies, and staff engagement and equality training. Now, that is important, because, at the heart of the programme on Monday was the inequality faced by women, both in the WRU and within the women's game. And women should be able to go to work and engage in sporting activity free from harassment and abuse. Now, on the workplace issues themselves that were raised in the programme, I would say this: if an organisation does not have a problem with its culture, then complaints of this scale and nature would not come forward. And even if a formal process led by an external lawyer doesn't uphold a complaint, it doesn't mean that that incident didn't happen.

Now, what I have seen for myself is that the WRU has made positive recent progress in developing the women's game in Wales, with professional contracts for the national team, a newly formed development team and an under-18 regional competition, to outline just a few examples—all increasing the opportunities for women and girls in rugby. However, the WRU itself recognises that this follows years of inertia in developing the women's game, which is why it commissioned a review into the women's game a few years ago. There have been calls for this document to be made public; I support those calls, as I am of the firm belief that it is more damaging in the way it is being shrouded in secrecy than it is if that report was published. I have made that point to the chief executive this morning, and I have made that point to him previously in discussions with him. The WRU should, in the first place, make that document public and clarify how it responded to the review and how it is planning on further development of the women's game. I'm also aware that there have been calls for a Senedd committee inquiry, which I would of course also welcome.

Llywydd, this is a matter that I, as Deputy Minister for sport, take extremely seriously, and I will continue to press in the strongest possible way for the immediate and transformative reform of the WRU, an organisation that is at the heart of our nation's sporting, cultural and civic life. 

Minister, the programme broadcast this week was a very distressing programme, and we heard some very distressing testimony. And I think we should all join together to applaud and to commend the women who spoke out then, and also, of course, the journalists who have told this story and who brought this to our attention. 

To me, what this speaks of is not an individual HR issue, but a deep-rooted culture, and a culture that must change. And for all of us who have spent a lifetime supporting Welsh rugby at all levels, we want to see this change occur. And what I'm not interested in is hearing short-term, knee-jerk measures. I'm not interested in a short-term witch hunt; I'm interested in long-term, fundamental change, and long-term, fundamental cultural change. And I hope that Ieuan Evans will be leading that change, and what I will say is that the governance of the WRU needs to change, the culture of the WRU needs to change, and we need to ensure that the culture of rugby in this country is an inclusive culture and one which encourages women to be a fundamental part of it and doesn't force people out—that cannot be the case. 

And what I would say to the WRU—if you are unable or unprepared to lead this change, then change will be forced upon you. This is not something that a sticking plaster will repair. This is not something that can be brushed under the carpet, and this is not something that the media will move on from next week. This calls for fundamental cultural change. And my question to you, Minister, is this: what will the Welsh Government do to work with the WRU to ensure that this change happens, and how will we understand that that change has happened? Because what I don't want to see is simply a list of actions, and we'll have a Senedd inquiry this time next year or whatever—what I want to see is that change taking place. It's for the WRU to lead this change, and it's for the WRU to take responsibility for that change. And I hope that we can all rely on the WRU to understand where it is today. 

Thank you, Alun Davies, for those comments, and, again, I couldn't agree more with the issues that you raise. The need for cultural change is something that we know, in any organisation, is the most difficult thing to bring about. Cultural change takes time. It takes changes of not just policies, it takes changes of personnel, it takes changes of attitude, and it is rarely something that can happen overnight. But I can assure you that I have made it absolutely clear that that cultural change has to happen, because, at the moment, the way that things are perceived within the WRU is not in line with the values of this Government.

Now, as a Government, clearly, we do not run the WRU. We don't own the WRU. They are an independent business, and we must be clear about where the decisions about the game in Wales are taken. And they are not taken by Welsh Government. But the whole point, and I think the point that you were making, Alun, is that rugby union, and international rugby union in particular, is so fundamental to the culture of this nation that we have to have an organisation that espouses the values of this nation as well. And that has to be that everybody, whether they are playing, or whether they work in the organisation, is valued and treated with respect and dignity, and that they are valued. And that will be the measure that I will put on the change within the WRU.

Now, I'm aware, Llywydd, that, as I'm on my feet, and perhaps just before I came into the Chamber, there was a press conference taking place with the WRU and with Ieuan Evans, who I did meet for the first time just a couple of weeks ago. And I have to say, in that conversation that I had with him a couple of weeks ago, I was very impressed with his determination to drive change within the WRU. Now, I have not had the opportunity, unfortunately, to catch up with what he said in this press conference, but I would very much hope that that is what he has set out very clearly in light of what happened, which was aired in this BBC programme on Monday. 

Certainly, I would like to associate myself with all the comments made. The programme was a very difficult one to watch. It does raise questions, because we've rightly been proud of rugby as a national sport alongside football, and everybody should feel safe in the workplace, and they are absolutely abhorrent, those allegations. What has equally been abhorrent, in my view, has been the public statements to date from the WRU, which have not given me the assurances that they are taking this as seriously as they should. The fact also that there have been opportunities to address these concerns previously under the current leadership, but that hasn't seemingly happened, raises concerns in my view and does raise questions about the current leadership. 

I haven't had those discussions, as you have had to date, face to face with the WRU, but can I ask you: do you feel reassured that the WRU is taking these allegations seriously enough and taking decisive action? And do you feel, as I do by now, that there needs to be a change of leadership if these allegations are going to be addressed to the degree that they need to be addressed? 

Also, I am horrified, to be honest, that there still hasn't been a commitment to publish that report, despite you as Deputy Minister requesting that report. What has been the attitude when you have asked for that publication? Have you been given any assurances that the report will be made public?

Also, given that we do donate some public funds, make them available, to the WRU, and much of it is to make sure that the sport is more inclusive, including for women, how can we be giving public funds to a body where we certainly can't assure women that the environment they will face will be a safe one and that they'll be safe from misogyny and sexism? Is this something that you're currently reviewing as well, Minister?

Thanks, Heledd. Again, all very valid points that I would again associate myself with. The WRU has had the opportunity to address these issues over a period of time. The conversation I had with the chief executive this morning was that he set out to me a number of actions that the WRU has already taken. I told him in no uncertain terms that I felt that that needed to be far more explicit, that he needed to be public about what the WRU has done to address some of these issues, primarily in light of the report on the women's game. 

The discussions that I've had with him previously on the report into the women's game and why there was a failure to publish was primarily because the women who gave evidence to develop that report were given an assurance that their confidentiality would be respected and their identities would not be disclosed. He made it very clear to me that he felt that, had they not been given that assurance, many of those women would not have come forward. So, he felt that he had to honour that confidentiality. I understand that, and I've made it clear to him that I don't think anybody is looking to identify anybody who has given evidence to that report, and such a report could be published and redacted so that people are not identified, and that's what I've called on him to do. So, we will wait and see whether, in light of those discussions I've had—those further discussions I've had—around that area this week, that actually happens.

There is a new leadership within the WRU. I talked about Ieuan Evans earlier on. He's only been the chair of the WRU for the last couple of weeks or so. He certainly seemed to be saying all the right things when I met with him. I haven't heard what he said in the press conference today. But I think it is now incumbent upon the WRU to actually demonstrate what their commitment is to make the changes that both yourself and Alun Davies have already clearly set out. Certainly, from the programme that we saw, the impression was that that has not yet happened. I think it is now for the WRU to prove that it is happening, and what they are setting out to ensure that it does happen.

I don't doubt what you're saying about Ieuan Evans being an excellent individual, but I'm just wondering whether, on his own, he's going to be able to turn this around. Because it's over a year ago that Amanda Blanc warned in her resignation speech that there was a time bomb of sexism and racism in the WRU, which has now exploded. So, in the light of the damage done to Wales, to our reputation, as a result of this perfect storm, and inaction by the WRU, what consideration has the Minister given to having an independent regulator for all publicly funded sporting bodies in Wales, so the culture of sporting bodies marking their own homework ceases?

I heard that call for an independent regulator come from Tonia Antoniazzi in the programme. It's the first time I've heard that call made by anybody, so I would need to have some discussion with officials about what that might look like, how that would work in practice, what the legalities of that might be, how that would link in, for instance, with international bodies, because the national governing bodies of Wales don't stop in Wales; there are international rugby boards, there's UEFA for football, there's FIFA for football, there are international boards for all of our governing bodies. So, on the face of it, it's not as simple as it sounds. However, I do think there is something in there that we could look at, but I certainly can't make any commitments to that at this stage, because I think that does require some considerable investigation.

Llywydd, if you'll bear with me, I'm very conscious that I didn't answer one of the points that Heledd Fychan raised with me, which was about the public funding of the WRU. What I would say is that the Welsh Government clearly does have a long-standing financial relationship with the WRU, which is based on basically advancing public and economic objectives. And as one of our major partners, we have very, very clear expectations about what an organisation looks like and behaves like to be in receipt of public funds, and that that is something that we will be watching very, very carefully in future.

Sport Wales has recently developed, with the sector, a capability and governance guidance framework for all national governing bodies working in Wales, and that's been developed by the sector to help provide a supportive tool to help organisations across a range of sectors. Now, again, one of the things I will want to be speaking to the WRU about is whether they are taking all of that on board. It's a new set of guidance from Sport Wales, and I will be expecting the WRU to be complying with it.

I'm getting a bit fed up with standing up here talking about public bodies, sporting bodies, police, the fire, and talking about the culture that is underpinning them, of a systematic culture of misogyny, sexism in traditionally male-dominated areas. I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

The WRU has said it

'condemns the use of racist, homophobic or sexist language'. 

Well, prove it. Because they haven't proved it, and neither have all the other organisations proved it yet. So, I've got to say, I found its statement, in response to the allegations, arrogant and dismissive. I thought that they minimised and they were gaslighting, in a way that many women here will recognise today. Particularly dismissive was the WRU's response to my colleague Tonia Antoniazzi's comment, and the Gower MP rightly suggested an independent body be established to look at those complaints against sporting governing bodies in Wales. If we look at the fact that she mentioned racism in cricket, and we've seen that play out; if we look at British Gymnastics, and we've seen that play out, how many Ministers are going to stand up here and explain what these public bodies aren't doing, because that's the question here?

So, I think what we need to do is go a little bit further here. The structures are clearly not working, the people who have overall responsibility say they didn't know what was happening at the bottom of their organisation. They hadn't had a conversation. Well, they should have. So, we need to ensure, in public-sponsored bodies, with public money, that those structures are sufficient enough to do two things: one, to make sure that all parts of that organisation know what's happening in the other parts of that organisation; and the other thing is safe passage for whistleblowers, because that is the other really important thing here, and also to vet those people who are going to take part in those organisations and also the people who oversee it.

I don't want to be standing up here next week, and I'm sure nobody else does, when we get another story that's breaking and another story. So, let's just really get a hold of this because this is a disgrace to Wales—an absolute disgrace to Wales. And, you know, what will it be next week? And to say that they can't publish a report because they have given, rightly, an opportunity for people not to be named in that report, is just a disgrace, because they know full well that they could publish that report by simply removing those names. So, they're hiding behind it again. I actually think we need a root-and-branch change of those people who were in charge of the WRU by their performance so far.

Well, thank you, Joyce, and many of those points that you raise, I think I have covered in responses to previous questions, and, again, I don't disagree with an awful lot of what you say. We have a responsibility as a Welsh Government, certainly, to ensure that bodies that we are financially involved with and that we have financial partnerships with are complying with rules, behaviour and cultural values that support our own. And if that is not happening, then we need to review those relationships, and I think I was making that very clear in response to Heledd Fychan's question. And it is that kind of partnership arrangement that is important, because, again, as I said in reply to Alun Davies, the WRU is an independent organisation—they are not part of Welsh Government and we cannot force them to do the things that we may want them to do, but we can make very, very clear what our expectations are. I think I couldn't have been clearer with the WRU this week about what our expectations are and we will be monitoring that very, very closely, and I will be expecting to see some significant change and significant movement in the way that this organisation is run in the weeks and months ahead.

And finally on this topical question, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Like everyone, the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee is aware of the allegations that have been made. Those allegations against the WRU are extremely serious. Worse than that, they are distressing, as we've heard. They've caused many people abject concern. I applaud the women who have come forward.

We, as a committee, are in agreement that anyone and everyone, regardless of their background, should be able to participate in sport without the fear of discrimination. No-one should ever be exposed to any form of prejudiced language or abuse, least of all in the place where they work, which is a place where everyone should be respected and treated equally. 

The committee is aware of the developments that have taken place since the programme was aired. We'll be continuing to monitor the situation closely over the coming days and the committee will be meeting formally next week to discuss this issue and, as part of those discussions, will consider any action we should take. In order to inform those discussions next week, Minister, I'd welcome confirmation—anything further to what you've already said—of any discussions you, as a Government, have had with the WRU, and I'd also like to know what, if any, options the Welsh Government is considering to bring about cultural change at the WRU, taking on board what you've already said this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

Yes, thank you, Delyth, and I think the intervention of the committee is very welcome and the support that the committee can offer here in terms of an inquiry to get beneath some of these issues, I think, would be very welcome and may be very, very helpful. But, again, I have to reiterate that I don't have the power or the authority to tell the WRU what they have to do. They are an independent organisation. What I can do is only reiterate what I have said previously, that I have left the WRU in absolutely no doubt whatsoever about what my expectations are for a major sporting governing body in Wales, what it should look like and how it should behave. And I would expect them to come back to me with their action plan very shortly, to set out exactly how they intend to tackle these issues.

I thank the Deputy Minister. The final topical question will be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.