Item 6 is next this afternoon: debate on a Member's legislative proposal—a Bill on digital carbon footprint reduction, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion. 

Motion NDM8155 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal for a Bill on digital carbon footprint reduction.

2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:

a) respond to the need to be more efficient in our use of digital in Wales, as part of the effort to reach net zero, specifically in relation to the use of energy to run digital platforms;

b) include a strategy to deal with data that is created, stored and processed in a more energy efficient way;

c) set targets for ensuring that data centres run in the most efficient manner, including through the use of renewable energy sources, thereby supporting the development of a green data sector in Wales;

d) ensure that sustainability is the basis of all decisions made when public bodies deal with data;

e) encourage innovation to help decarbonise and reach national net-zero objectives.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Well, this is a debate about the relationship between the digital world and the world around us, on the interaction that happens between our use of digital technology and our concerns about climate change. Let me say right at the outset that, as chair of the cross-party group on digital, I'm eager to see us make more use of digital platforms, to improve our digital skills, and to build new platforms. These, I think, will enrich us in so many ways, creating economic opportunities, improving our health, strengthening our language, everything, including helping us to tackle the climate crisis. Through digital technology, we can manage our use of energy better, and that's how we model effective ways of producing green energy, and we can plan less harmful ways of travelling around, and that happens through digital technology and so forth. 

But—and this is what I am submitting today—we need to gain a greater realisation that that use of digital technology in itself produces a carbon footprint. I bring this up because of the very interesting discussion that we had on this issue at the last meeting of the cross-party group on digital. And what we heard in that discussion was that that carbon footprint can be a very, very large one, if we are not careful. And I came to this conclusion: as well as developing practical ways to be more effective in our use of digital, we could also be thinking now about whether there is scope for new legislation.

The proposal itself outlines the type of Bill that I believe could be worth considering, and I ask you to support it in terms of its current content, or in terms of the principle that we have to think along these lines now, in order to be in a strong position to deal with some of the challenges that are only going to pile up if we don't address them. And by the way, I am aware that the Welsh  Government is aware of these challenges and is tackling them in several ways—I don't believe that officials and so forth are blind to these challenges. Bodies like the Centre for Digital Public Services work in this area. However, the challenges somehow need to be better understood by more people. 

Many do not understand that the everyday decisions that they make have an environmental impact. How much electricity can be used, or how much of a carbon footprint could be created in connection with sending an e-mail? Well consider how many billions of e-mails are sent. Perhaps the text of the occasional e-mail raises the temperature in your office, but consider the fact that storing the data in that e-mail contributes to the heating of machines in data centres, and that the environmental cost of cooling those data centres becomes greater and greater. Consider that including an attachment to that e-mail greatly increases the need for data storage space, and that a decision to send a link could reduce the carbon footprint. Legislation requiring an assessment of the carbon footprint of using digital resources in an organisation could lead to improving good practices within those organisations.

Also, given that many of us are drowning in a tidal wave of junk, or at least unnecessary e-mail communications, what if legislation of that type could lead to fewer e-mails being sent, improving the environment and our own productivity as a workforce at the same time?   

In case the message isn't clear enough: sending an A4 letter emits about 25g of carbon dioxide; an e-mail with an attachment is 50g—double—and without an attachment, 0.3g. And e-mails and attachments account for 300 million tonnes of carbon dioxide every year. So, think carefully about the content of the e-mail or the attachment, or even about sending the e-mail at all. I find the prospect of becoming more productive by thinking more environmentally to be something quite exciting.

And decisions we can all take involve much more than how many e-mails we send. Do we take a photo or a video on our phones? A photo takes up less storage space. How long do we store that data for? Do we take dozens of pictures at a time and never purge our albums? That has an impact. Not much if we break it down as individuals, but that's the whole thing about tackling climate change; it’s the collective.

One expert in this field from the M-SParc science park on Ynys Môn suggested to me that you can look at it in terms of our digital consumption and digital retention. We need to think about how much we consume in the first place—how much storage space we need to create for that video or that file or that e-mail or whatever, and then the extent to which we make long-term use of that storage space by not having good housekeeping measures in place to delete things in good time. Again, legislating to mandate assessments of digital carbon footprints of storage, for example, for any organisation could encourage that good practice. We can't just be hoarders of digital content and think there's no consequence to that.

And of course there's space that we absolutely need to use up. The development of new artificial intelligence models—hugely intensive in computing power and data storage space. But, we need to be doing that, so we need to shed more of the unnecessary stuff, but we also need to be less carbon-intensive in the way that data centres are run to store that data. Many will need to move to places where it's colder. Shifting into night-time use will save on energy costs but won’t help the environment, but shifting to powering from renewable sources does address that. And there’s a potential for Wales with our abundance of renewable energy there. At the same time, we need to learn the lessons of countries like Ireland, who face growing concerns over the amount that renewable energy data centres are consuming. Again, legislation could help focus minds.

I really could go on, but I'll stop there for now. I think I'm right in saying that this is the first time we’ve had this kind of debate on this kind of topic, and I look forward to Members’ contributions, as we try to give this issue much more prominence, and hopefully, get some legislation behind it, too.

I would really like to thank our colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth for bringing forward this legislative proposal today, and I'm very pleased to be giving it my support. Of course, as our party's shadow Minister for climate change, we think that it's vital that we do embrace new technologies for the way that they can enhance our emission reduction systems, and this is something that Wales can take the lead on. Research by the International Energy Agency shows that 60 per cent of all low-carbon energy patents across the past five years have been connected to fuel switching and energy-efficient technologies, and this proposal for a Bill on digital carbon footprint reductions can be the key to doing exactly that.

Part (a) aims to

'respond to the need to be more efficient in our use of digital in Wales, as part of the effort to reach net zero, specifically in relation to the use of energy to run digital platforms'.

More clearly needs to be done by the Welsh Government in accelerating our use of green digital infrastructure. When we have so much technology at our fingertips now, the sources powering it have to be made as clean and renewable as possible.

Part (b) seeks to

'include a strategy to deal with data that is created, stored and processed in a more energy efficient way'.

And I completely agree: there has to be a more co-ordinated and joined-up approach to data management. This will not just benefit decarbonisation, but it will help in other sectors such as our health service, education and other departments.

I note, in particular, part (c), which aims to support the development of a green data sector in Wales. This seems to be a marvellous opportunity to provide a boost for home-grown green jobs in Wales. It would complement new offshore renewable projects such as tidal lagoons and windfarms, which we highlighted in our Welsh Conservative debate last week. The education and training opportunities, especially for our young people, would provide a significant incentive to build a career in a skilled, high-paying job right here in Wales.

And finally, part (e) seeks to

'encourage innovation to help decarbonise and reach national net-zero objectives'.

I agree, and I hope that this can be done on a UK-wide basis, bringing together the brightest and the best scientific minds from right across the country. The UK Government's Advanced Research and Innovation Agency, or ARIA, is a good example of this. This was set up to explore the enormous scientific opportunities of groundbreaking discoveries. The investments in data and technology that we make now have the potential to provide enormous economic return in the years and decades to come. Ultimately, if we can improve digital connectivity and infrastructure right across Wales, there is absolutely no reason why this technology cannot be applied to monitoring our climate change commitments. For the sake of future generations, it's a task that we must not fail on. I have no hesitation in supporting Rhun and this legislative proposal whatsoever. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for bringing this Member's legislative proposal to the Chamber today. I think this is an opportunity to discuss an issue that many aren't aware exists in this ever-expanding digitised world. When we think about reducing our carbon footprint, there is often an assumption that going online acts as a sustainable alternative to combat our environmental impact, for example, by working from home instead of driving your car to work, or by going paperless to save trees, while storing all the information and data in the cloud. When we send an e-mail, we don't necessarily think about how that e-mail is being stored and what impact that storage is having on the environment.

But the reality is that data centres, which is what I'm going to focus on today, are physical buildings that require mass amounts of energy to store data. They are in use 24/7 and require a constant temperature of 12 degrees Celsius so that they do not destroy any data that is stored in them. They also require more energy and water to prevent the deterioration of servers, which is why research shows that data centres use nearly 3 per cent of the world's electricity consumption and account for 2 per cent of total greenhouse gas emissions. This is enough energy to power entire countries and emissions comparable to the entire global airline industry.

So, there is no doubt that this is creating an impact on our carbon footprint. We cannot have a situation where we replace one polluter with another, and, as Janet Finch-Saunders said, it's not all bad, we need this, absolutely, but we must be honest about the realities of data centres and put infrastructure in place that deals with sustainable methods such as green data centres before it is too late, and we heard some other suggestions from Rhun just now.

Companies such as Microsoft, Switch and other data process and storage companies must work to seek green innovations to maximise energy efficiency. There are good examples of this from reducing cooling with AI to using small numbers of servers when there is low traffic of data. I would also argue that any new data centres in Wales should not be built on greenfield sites.

In November 2021, I wrote to Welsh Government to ask them for their assessment of the environmental impacts of data centres. At the time, the Welsh Government stated that it had not taken an assessment and would continue to engage with other nations and their findings as more evidence emerged. I hope that, with the work going into the Wales data nation accelerator, where public services may rely on this collection and storage of data, the Welsh Government considers this growing evidence and that we do not generate unnecessary negative impacts on our environment. So, therefore, as a fellow chair of the cross-party group on digital rights and democracy, I will be supporting your Member's legislative proposal this afternoon, Rhun. Diolch.

Thank you, Rhun, for raising this important debate today. I fully support the proposals of this Bill, and I believe that we need to be much more forward thinking in our approach to policy that helps reduce our carbon footprint in technological areas, especially as we will be relying more heavily on digital data going forward into the future. It is only right that we put legislation into place that helps ensure that we are as efficient as possible with using and storing data and we have protocols in place, particularly within public bodies, to better share and remove data that is no longer needed.

As you may all recall, I recently spoke in the Chamber about dark data, and the truth is that, whilst we are investing huge sums of money to reduce carbon in industry, encouraging people to change behaviour, as well as changing the ways we heat our home and travel around, we are not actually addressing the elephant in the room—namely, we are adopting practices and embracing technological advances in our lives that are resulting in even more carbon dioxide being produced. For instance, nearly every mobile phone has a camera, which allows us to take movies and photos in a way we couldn't 10 years ago. We use apps that create data for fun, and we end up storing huge amounts that will never, ever be used again. Whilst I recognise that we should be doing everything we can to improve data storage and use in areas that we can influence, the inconvenient truth is that significant amounts of data will be produced in Wales and held on servers globally, and thus we are contributing to a production of carbon dioxide in places that we have no control over. For instance, data from our Apple phones is held in data centres in the US. We receive huge numbers of e-mails each day advertising promotions that we'll never, ever read, and these are held on servers in other countries that have to be powered and, more crucially, have to be cooled. We must also recognise the scale of this problem. Globally, more than half of all businesses have data that exists in a dormant or unused state, and it is estimated that 6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide will be produced annually just by storing this data, and this will never be used.

I finally want to say that, in terms of a Bill on digital carbon footprint, we also need to think about how we contribute to our global carbon emissions from data produced in Wales and stored abroad, and this will come from improving our understanding of how data flows through organisations and by creating policies that ensure our companies in Wales have processes in place that improve the visibility of dark data and better control our data storage. These policies then can also help companies and organisations to further comply with data privacy laws, such as the general data protection regulation. It is right that we introduce this legislation as soon as possible and that Wales makes a valuable contribution, because it is estimated that the amount of dark data stored worldwide will more than quadruple by 2025 to 91 ZB, which more than highlights the challenges ahead of us. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I would urge all Members here to support this motion. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Member for raising the important issues in today's debate and proposal. We all know and agree that the use of digital data and technology is essential in providing opportunities that benefit people, communities, public services and businesses. We also know that our increasing reliance on digital can increase carbon emissions through the energy used in processing and storing large amounts of data and running digital platforms and technology—most Members have referred to this in their contributions.

I recognise the Member's policy intent in the motion and agree with its sentiment. In fact, the Member, in opening, recognised that an amount of work is already taking place in this field. However, including it in the Welsh Government legislative timetable would be a genuine challenge, as it is already under considerable pressure and may face more, depending on external events.

Our 'Digital strategy for Wales' already articulates how digital can actually help to reduce carbon emissions overall and achieve our net-zero ambitions by designing public services effectively, using data smartly and openly, and modernising technology. And of course, our future generations Act places a responsibility on public bodies to put sustainability at the heart of all policy decisions, and that includes investment in digital and data.

From a public sector perspective, as was acknowledged, the Centre for Digital Public Services is supporting organisations to develop effective digital services centred around the needs of users. That means using technology more efficiently, minimising carbon usage and reducing the need for travel. The centre recently undertook a discovery exercise and made recommendations on how digital can help towards net zero. They include the importance of measuring the carbon footprint of services and moving to shared services and platforms. The centre also recommends building sustainability into digital procurement. Social value is increasingly becoming part of the evaluation criteria for procurement, and that includes sustainability considerations. The centre is working on next steps to ensure delivery against these important recommendations.

A key ambition in our digital strategy is providing improved digital services through better and ethical use of data. Common use of agreed standards is vital to achieving this. By ensuring that data is easily accessible and published openly, or shared securely, we can minimise duplication of data and its storage, one of the key points made by the Member. This reduces both costs and carbon footprint. Openly reporting on the environmental performance of services also ensures accountability and transparency of energy use.

As we know, data is needed for almost everything at this point, and will be more so in the future. Data centres, as mentioned by Sarah Murphy, play a critical role in storing the data, software and hardware that underpin the services that we all use. They're integral to the delivery chain and are, of course, consumers of energy and power. There is, of course, a major responsibility on companies to reduce the carbon impact of the data that they hold. We know that the industry is taking this seriously and is reducing power consumption, switching to renewable and low-carbon energy sources and driving efficiencies, including, of course, the use of excess heat, and, again, Sarah Murphy mentioned this in her contribution.

In Wales, this is happening too. We expect to see more data centres in Wales in the future and want them to be built to current and future environmental standards. Our emissions reduction plan, Net Zero Wales, sets ourselves ambitious national targets. It highlights the role that digital infrastructure can play in decarbonisation, as well as decarbonising the energy supply itself. To support our ambitions, we'll publish the net-zero skills plan shortly; that will set out our commitment to net-zero skills by investing in people and talent as crucial drivers towards a stronger, fairer, greener economy. Digital skills will be one of the cross-cutting themes.

Our innovation strategy will also enable the Welsh Government to address carbon measurement and highlight the use of digital tools in helping us to fully understand the impact we have on carbon reduction. As I've said, I recognise that there is, of course, a digital footprint, and that footprint has a carbon footprint.

I do want to thank the Member for the way in which he opened the debate, in recognising that we are taking action, and the cross-party group is broadly supportive of the digital strategy. But there is both the carbon footprint to digital activity, which is real, but also, as has been highlighted, a real lack of awareness that there is a carbon footprint to digital activity. Part of our challenge is what we can do to both raise awareness and action to address that.

Now, I'm not convinced that extra legislation is the answer. However, there is always a balance as to when legislation can and may not deliver the policy progress that we all agree upon. So, I look forward to the Member further developing the proposal. The Welsh Government will not oppose the proposal today; we will abstain and Welsh Government-supporting backbenchers will have a free vote. I think there is more for us to discuss about the proposals that have been outlined today, practical action, and our willingness to actually consider that in the future.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much to everyone who's participated in this debate, which I think has been important in terms of raising awareness among people who perhaps hadn't thought about the issue before and reinforcing the fact that we, as a Senedd, are willing to take steps to try to respond to a problem that will only get worse. I recognise that the Minister has yet to be convinced that that has to include legislation, and perhaps it doesn't have to include legislation, but the fact that we are willing to consider legislation as one of the options does mean that we are at less of a risk of being in a position where we realise in years to come that we should have taken the issue more seriously. It's good to hear Members from the Labour and Conservative back benches reinforcing what I had to say in my contribution. There is clear agreement that there is an issue here that needs to be addressed.

There are two issues at play here. It's about using digital for greening, which is really important, as has been acknowledged here. Digital is the key to everything that we need to do to improve our actions in tackling climate change, but, at the same time, it's the greening of digital that we have to pay attention to. I'll keep on looking at the options for legislation and, hopefully, a positive vote today, which I'm fairly confident that we can get, will be a sign that that is very much something that we want to keep on the agenda as a Parliament. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Voting is therefore deferred until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.