We move now to item 7, the debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh, Sport and International Relations Committee report, 'Increasing costs: Impact on culture and sport', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Delyth Jewell. 

Motion NDM8189 Delyth Jewell

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee, ‘Increasing costs: Impact on culture and sport’, which was laid in the Table Office on 25 November 2022.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion on behalf of the committee.

It is my pleasure to open the debate today about the report by the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee on the impact of increasing costs on culture and sport. I would like to thank everyone who took part in this inquiry and who shared their experiences with us as a committee. This includes the significant number of written responses that we received. That demonstrates how concerned many stakeholders are about the impact of the cost of living on their work. I would also, of course, like to thank the members of the committee and our support staff for their work.

Culture and sport are especially vulnerable to the problems caused by higher living costs. Participation in activities has not returned to pre-pandemic levels. This is harming income in these sectors, meaning that many people—often the most disadvantaged—are missing out on the physical, mental and social benefits associated with taking part. And as we heard, sport and culture are not luxury items; instead, they are the things that give purpose to people's lives, things that bring happiness. The loss is not just a financial one.

But the financial landscape for these sectors is a cause for concern. Venues in these sectors are often energy intensive and operate on the basis of very narrow profit margins. Swimming pools, for instance, are expensive to heat, and face rising costs in other areas, such as the cost of cleaning chemicals. Higher costs and lower income mean that venues like this are at risk of permanent closure. And once they have closed, they are unlikely to reopen.

And the problems are serious with culture too. The arts council said in September that

'the crisis facing the sector is as great as at any time over the last two years.'

These sectors were under threat of permanent and widespread closure of venues during the pandemic. Rapid action and funding from the Welsh Government during the COVID period of over £140 million prevented that from happening. Our point as a committee is that this money will have been wasted if these venues were to be closed now.

We have called for additional targeted funding to offer a lifeline to venues that may close permanently in the coming months, but would probably otherwise have a long and sustainable future ahead of them. The Welsh Government says it that has accepted our key recommendation for additional funding for these sectors; that's to be welcomed, but the amount that is being provided unfortunately is a fraction of what the sector has called for.

The Deputy Minister has referred to £3.75 million in additional funding for culture and sport during the 2022-23 financial year. Of course, additional funding is to be welcomed, but this can be compared to the £5 million to £10 million for the arts alone that the arts council has called for. It would be good to know how much of the £3.75 million that the Deputy Minister referred to was for pay awards in these sectors.

The Welsh Government told us during the inquiry that

'growth in energy costs, coupled with rising inflation, pose risks to individuals, households, businesses, organisations and sectors not seen since the Second World War.'

But our view as a committee is that the nature of its response does not match this description. The Welsh Government was deservedly praised by the cultural sector for the speed of its response to COVID-19. Thus far, however, its response to the impact of increasing costs on culture and sport has failed to match the severity of the crisis. The pandemic was a universal problem that required sector-specific responses. The same is true of the cost-of-living crisis, and unfortunately, the situation has deteriorated since our report was published.

Reductions in the support available for energy bills from the UK Government in January 2023 have exacerbated concerns about business closures across the culture and sports sectors. UK Active said that the Government's new energy bill reduction scheme fails to give thousands of swimming pools, leisure centres and gyms the support that they need to avoid further restrictions on services, centre closures and job losses. Music Venue Trust said that venues, along with the entire hospitality sector, have been placed in a general category of support that is so inadequate that it will inevitably lead to the permanent closure of venues.

We have started to see troubling signs that we could see venues closing permanently and on a large scale very soon. In Cardiff, this relates to the future of St David's Hall and the Museum of Cardiff; and Powys County Council has only just avoided closing swimming pools temporarily in response to the energy crisis. One of the most popular petitions in Wales at the moment is calling for direct funding to support swimming pools and leisure centres during the energy crisis. Of course, in November, UK Active warned that 40 per cent of council areas were at risk of losing their leisure centres and swimming pools within five months, or seeing their services being reorganised or closed.

So, unfortunately, the landscape is not a pleasant one; it is not an easy one to discuss, but we need to discuss it. I look forward, therefore, to hearing the comments of other Members, and of course, the Deputy Minister. And I hope that we can offer some hope in these very dark times.

I'd also like to thank, as Delyth Jewell has, stakeholders from the sports and cultural sectors in Wales for giving their time to the committee and setting out the key issues that they face. 

A number of things struck me as we were gathering evidence for the report, including a huge range of problems that these sectors are facing. For example, we received evidence that showed that rises in wages were a big factor in staff turnover, as well as the affordability of keeping staff. So, it's clear that we must, again, rely on volunteers to help keep our vibrant culture sector going. I'm a big believer in volunteering, but think that giving them more burden without a solid support is not the way to go. So, it would be good to hear from the Deputy Minister what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that people who follow careers in this area are encouraged, but also what support, additionally, over and above that, is provided to volunteers as well.

There is also the issue of preparedness. The funding from Welsh Government in recent years hasn't taken into account rises in costs before the pandemic. That's something that we heard from the witnesses that came before us. Clearly, cultural and sporting venues have been supported throughout the pandemic by the Welsh Government and the UK Government, but there has been a sense that their long-term funding is unknown, and short-term support, as outlined by the Deputy Minister in her response to the committee, won't help in that regard. So, surely we should be looking further down the road and making sure that these vital community resources are protected and nurtured. And I do feel the concerns outlined by stakeholders when they say, and I quote,

'The sector is financially fragile—lots of late bookings, lack of public confidence and cash, high numbers of no-shows so no secondary income on bars etc.'

That fragility, alongside rising energy costs, is causing venues to raise their prices, which, in turn, is pricing many individuals and families in Wales out of enjoying the arts and cultural sector, which then becomes a vicious cycle.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the really concerning part of the evidence we received was from Sport Wales, where they noted that two in five people's ability was negatively impacted by rising costs and that 30 per cent were saying that they were less active as a result. That should send alarm bells ringing right across Welsh Government departments, especially because of a focus on reducing obesity, as well as the value of sport in preventing long-term health conditions.

Turning to the Welsh Government's reply, I also welcome that the Deputy Minister has accepted all but two of the recommendations. However, I'm really interested that the Deputy Minister has accepted recommendation 4 about providing capital funding for the sport and culture sector on greening their energy consumption, but in her response she mentioned that this would be provided through the unhypothecated capital grant funding given to councils. And she said that this funding

'may be used to support sports and social facilities by Local Authorities in this way if Authorities consider it is appropriate to do so.'

For me, I feel that's a little bit of a get-out clause, as local authorities will have, obviously, competing priorities, and making sure sporting and cultural venues are energy efficient may not necessarily be top of that list. This was a point that Community Leisure UK Wales made very well in their evidence to the committee, so I'd be very interested to learn how this acceptance by the Deputy Minister does pan out over the years to come.

I'm also disappointed to see from the recommendations that the Welsh Government wasn't interested in opening dialogue with the UK Government on sporting and cultural packages of support, because I think that's a missed opportunity. For example, the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee in the UK Parliament were calling for value-added tax relief in November, which could really help live music and heritage sectors in Wales, including for building restorations and ticket sales. Also, we learned how important the cultural recovery fund was to many in the Welsh arts sector, and we need to ensure that that is built upon.

There seems to be a bit of a theme here. The other recommendation the Deputy Minister also declined was about improving engagement with the cultural sector. So, it looks like the Welsh Government perhaps doesn't play well with others, and that it's a one-way relationship. If the record of engagement with these sectors is, as you say, Deputy Minister, exemplar, then why is that recommendation included in the first place in the committee's report?

It's not just a call to ensure that our culture is protected, but, logically, it's a part of our economy too. It's a great pity that the Welsh Government missed out on huge economic opportunities, such as bidding for Eurovision and the Commonwealth Games, which would have showcased our talent on an international stage. So, to conclude, it should be incumbent on you as a Minister and us as Senedd Members to represent how important Wales's rich culture and sporting pride is, especially when it comes to keeping them going. Instead, what we shouldn't be guilty of is watching on from the sidelines rather than tackling the key issues that face these sectors. Thank you.

Like others, I'd like to start my contribution this afternoon by thanking those people who gave evidence to the committee, and thanking the committee secretariat for the work they've done in producing this report. I think the report is very timely. It deals with some of the more fundamental issues that we face as a country, and, like Tom Giffard, I'm very grateful to the Minister for accepting all but two of our recommendations. In many ways, the committee report states what we already know—it states the obvious that costs have increased—and we've seen the impact of those increases in costs, and we can describe in different ways how those cost increases have affected arts, culture and sport in our own constituencies. But I want to make a somewhat different point this afternoon.

Whilst it's fair to argue that increased costs have similar impacts across the face of the country—the increased costs of electricity are the same here as they would be in Blaenau Gwent—what I would argue, though, is that the impact on people and places is different. If a Government's response is simply to treat all places and people equally, then they're not addressing the real issues that affect people in different parts of the country. We had a conversation in topical questions about the nature of equality in rugby, but the point I want to make this afternoon is that there's an important and fundamental nature of equality in all that we do in terms of arts, culture and sport, and that at the moment, I believe that we are failing the basic test of equality. 

We had a conversation with the Minister last week over the Welsh Government's budget, and the Minister made the correct and clear case that it is a matter for different bodies, such as Sport Wales and the Arts Council of Wales, to distribute funding according to the remit letter that is set for them, and that the remit letter covers the next five years. I accept and I agree with that, and that is the correct answer to the question, but it misses the point. Because the Government has a responsibility in setting out that remit letter, so that the constituents I represent in Blaenau Gwent, and that, in fact, she represents in Merthyr, are treated equally as the people represented here by—Jenny Rathbone always catches my eye as I look across the Chamber, and I don't mean to pick on you, Jenny—but the people Jenny represents in the centre of Cardiff.

So, it is important, therefore, that people who are unable to pay the additional costs charged to access cultural or sporting activity have additional help to do so. It is important that those venues and facilities that are unable to sustain their programme of activities or their opening hours for the general public are able to do so, wherever they may be. And there is a greater reliance on Government help and Government support and the role and place of Government in places like Blaenau Gwent than in places like Cardiff. Therefore, if the test that we want to set for the Government is equality, then I want to see the Government doing more where there is greatest need and less where there is less need. And that is a difficult point to make for Government, because the Government likes to tell us that everywhere in Wales is having a little piece of jam, and we've been doing this for the 15 years I've been here. However, that means that some people are still left needing greater support whilst others receive support that perhaps they don't fully need. And it is the test of equality that I want to set for the Minister in debating and discussing this report, because it is important, and it does relate to the conversation we had earlier about equality.

Because what we are seeking to achieve in Wales is cultural change, cultural change in terms of sporting activity, so that people like me, who look like me—and, let's face it, I've bought a new suit every year for the last 15 years—are able to reduce their weight and are able to increase their fitness levels. But you're unable to do it if you're locking people out of sporting and fitness activities because they can't afford the costs of accessing them. We want to see cultural change whereby everybody has the same opportunity to express who they are, their cultural identity, their own background. But if they don't access the cultural venues that they need to in order to do that, you are locking them out from the culture of our country.

So, if we do want to see the change that I think we all want to see, on all sides of the Chamber, as it happens, then that means that the Government cannot stand back and say, 'I wrote a letter last year, and I'll come back to you in another five years.' It means that the Government has to be an activist Government, intervening in these matters, month after month and week after week and year after year. And that means that the Government, if it is serious about equality and serious about achieving its ambitions of equality, has to take tough decisions, and that, Minister, is what I want to hear in your reply to this debate. I'm grateful to Members.

May I also add my thanks to the clerks, my fellow Members and everyone who provided evidence? As the Chair said in opening this debate, the situation is worse than it was when we were taking evidence, and the situation was grim enough in terms of the future of arts and culture then. And Alun Davies's point is crucially important, I think, in terms of equality, because I despise seeing surveys by local authorities at the moment asking, 'Do you want to keep your library, your museum open, or do you want your bins collected regularly? Do you want older people in society to be cared for, or do you want a museum?' These are not fair choices to put before people, and the fact is that we still see culture and sport as 'nice to have'—some of these things that are just little luxuries of life rather than being a crucial part of everyone's life.

The truth is that, despite the fact that we have local museums, that we have libraries, that we have national institutions, there are still too many people here in Wales who can't access them, as things currently stand. There are all sorts of barriers. We know that the cost of transport is one of those barriers. If you don't live close enough to enjoy some of the incredible things that are available free of charge—. I know of many people who live very near to St Fagans but they can't get there because they don't have a car or can't afford a bus, and that is a barrier. Even when you live in Cardiff, there are barriers in accessing these facilities.

I think we have to look, when you do have high transport costs, at the fact that a lot of people still think that culture simply isn't for them because they haven't had those opportunities, and policies such as free access to our national museums is crucial. But what's a barrier now is the travel costs to get there. Many schools rely on buses to come to our national museums. That's a huge problem, because they can't afford these coach trips. So, what's available locally becomes even more important.

We're talking about swimming lessons; well, the cost of them is going to increase. People can't afford them as things stand. But, rather than seeing it as a key skill, difficult decisions will be made, meaning that there will be fewer opportunities, while simultaneously we want to be promoting the preventative agenda, and also in terms of future generations, the fact that we want everyone to have the same opportunities, wherever they live in Wales. So, there are very real challenges, and I think one of the great concerns that emerged from this report was the fact that the increase in cost was going to have an impact on those that we need to provide more opportunities to.

One of the things that I would ask the Minister to expand upon is why the tenth recommendation was rejected in relation to increasing the dialogue with the cultural sector. I accept that you have a good relationship, but can I ask how much mapping is done in terms of the situation facing the sector at the moment across Wales and what will the impact of that be in terms of audiences and participation? I think it's important to work with the education sector to understand the impact of a lack of school trips in terms of that access too.

One of the things that's not clear to me in terms of the response is how can we build upon the work of things such as the review of local museums that took place in 2015, which clearly showed the impact of previous cuts on these services. But the situation is even more stark now. There might be dialogue, but where's the action? Without doubt, it's a dire financial situation for our local authorities, because many of these are non-statutory services, including sport. So, if we take this in the context of the health service, I mentioned earlier the importance of sport and culture in terms of the preventative element, that we do secure equal opportunities for everyone in Wales. How can we, therefore, look differently at Government budgets in order to ensure that these opportunities continue to be available?

I would like to see a clear message from Government that we don't consider sport and culture as nice to have when times are good, and that this is exceptionally important in terms of the vision of the Welsh Government in all elements of the agenda, from tackling child poverty to the nation's health. So, can I ask, Deputy Minister, for your response in terms of what's happening across Wales in seeing a reduction in these services, and how will the Welsh Government secure that equal access to everyone, wherever they are in Wales?

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I'd also like to thank committee staff and all the organisations that took part in giving evidence for the report. One of the key messages here is that, with inflation reaching its highest level in more than 40 years, many people are cutting back on extra spending. For some, this includes spending on sport and cultural activities. In 2019-20, 23 per cent of all people and 31 per cent of children in Wales were living in relative income poverty. Not only are these families most likely to be impacted by the cost-of-living crisis, but Sports Wales research also suggests that they are the most likely group to be inactive, and this can cause serious health consequences.

It's a real concern that, according to Swim Wales, just 52 per cent of pupils moving to high school are able to swim. Swimming is an essential life skill that should be taught through schools as it will capture every child and may be something that families can no longer afford when hit with cost-of-living pressures. The Welsh Government provides some funding for free swimming, and that's really welcome, and it helps to keep pools open, but it really should be more. The Welsh Government's also facing real-terms cuts because of inflationary pressures, so I understand that pressure on the Welsh Government too.

Schools also say the increasing cost of bus transport is prohibitive when they are facing other cost pressures. North Wales and rural areas are particularly affected because transport is needed to get to sport centres and swimming pools, as my colleague Alun Davies, raised earlier. Transport operators could provide schools with free transport as part of the social value procurement contract to local authorities when bidding for home-to-school transport, and perhaps this is something that the Minister and Deputy Minister could raise through the WLGA.

The Local Government and Housing Committee—I see the chair is also present today—has raised concern about the resilience of libraries and leisure centres, as everything non-statutory is on the table following a decade of austerity, alongside current inflationary pressures, increased energy costs and rising wages. I believe that that committee is also going to be looking into this. Tennis clubs are also feeling these pressures, with feedback from Lawn Tennis Association venues prior to Christmas finding that 75 per cent are worried about energy costs, while 92 per cent of venues with more than eight courts were concerned about the impact of rising costs. All these organisations are calling for targeted support to those from areas of highest social deprivation whose participation is most effected by the pandemic and cost-of-living crisis. This is an important opportunity to support more young people to develop their life skills and opportunities through sport, including through volunteering, and support to address barriers they may face in progressing through workforce pathways.

We must not forget that sport and culture are part of the preventative services regarding physical and mental health and well-being, as my colleague Heledd Fychan raised earlier. These are part of the national health service. We've been talking previously in debates that it's not just about the NHS, it's about all these preventative services, going forward. Thank you.

I extend my thanks to the culture committee for undertaking this piece of work and raising this important issue.

Llywydd, I stand and contribute today in my role as chair of the Petitions Committee. One of the most popular petitions since the start of this year has focused on the impact of high energy costs on swimming pools and leisure centres. The petition titled 'Protect leisure centres and swimming pools from closure during the current energy crisis' has received over 4,700 signatures since it opened at the very end of 2022. That is a petition that is still collecting signatures today and until the end of this month. I've just checked on the very useful tool our Petitions Committee clerks have given us and facilitated, and every single constituency has had a signature on this petition. I think that raises the importance of what we're talking about here. The petition reads as follows:

'Swimming pools and leisure centres across the country are under threat as the energy crisis impacts communities across the nation. These facilities provide an essential service for the people of Wales, and are vital to the country's wellbeing. We, the undersigned, call on the Senedd and Welsh Government to recognise the vulnerability of swimming pools by providing a ring-fenced package of financial aid above and beyond the Final Local Government Settlement to ensure swimming pools remain open.'

As I said, Llywydd, this petition is still collecting signatures until the end of February, so it limits me to what I can say directly about the petition until it comes to the committee later this year. But if we reflect on last year and the Petitions Committee work when we published a piece of work based on preventing drowning, a theme that underpinned that work was the vital importance of young people being taught to swim and to understand the dangers of waters. Swimming lessons develop a key life skill that opens up a world of fun and physical activity, but also builds safety and confidence. We need facilities to teach skills in every corner of the country.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

I appreciate the work you're doing in the Petitions Committee, and I know you investigate the background to any petition. So, in the work that you probably will do, once you close the petition, could you investigate whether any swimming pools in Wales are actually operating with renewable energy? Because obviously, if they're not, they are going to be hugely vulnerable.

Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for that suggestion? That's certainly one we will look into further. It's a valued suggestion from the Member. Of course, any suggestions on the committee's work are always welcome.

Llywydd, the challenge facing those who run swimming pools was an issue raised in the culture committee's inquiry, as we've heard today, and it's in this report that we are debating. The committee heard that pools were already reducing temperatures to save money, and in one area officials were predicting the closure of pools within the next 12 months. I note the committee's third recommendation called on the Welsh Government to ensure that those who run pools and leisure centres were eligible for support for greening their energy consumption, and I quote,

'such as that available from the Welsh Government’s Energy Service'.

The Minister's response confirms that leisure trusts will be eligible, but I note again that the only financial support is made up of an interest-free loan. Of course, this is very welcome, and we should not take away from that fact, but that may not be sufficient to get us through the next 12 months. We all know, in this Chamber, that we are in particularly hard times, and we all know that we simply don't have all the money that we would want to meet our needs, but has the Minister given any thought to providing direct financial support to meet the costs now being faced by swimming pools and leisure centres? Diolch.

May I sincerely thank Delyth Jewell, the committee Chair, and her fellow committee members for this important report placed before the Senedd today? I believe that all of us in this Chamber understand that culture and sport are totally integral to the fabric and identity of Welsh life. We know that our cultural and sporting organisations barely endured the financial storm that the COVID pandemic brought to their doorstep, and this is despite the £140 million from Welsh Government, when many called for that to go elsewhere. But as they have re-emerged into a post-pandemic world, our arts sectors are now met with this crippling cost-of-living crisis, and this is alongside the remaining residue of COVID workforce capacity losses, as live music faces one of its worst landscapes since the second world war. I'm going to focus on just two of the committee's report recommendations, although I do have sympathy with recommendation 6, with the real amounts of money needed, but this is a fully devolved matter, and so I do understand why the Welsh Government has not accepted recommendation 6.

Firstly, recommendation 7, namely that the Welsh Government should encourage sporting and cultural activities in warm hubs and fund the providers accordingly. I'm very heartened to see that the Welsh Labour Government is committed to accepting this recommendation. In Islwyn, Caerphilly County Borough Council has designated warm hubs that they have called 'welcoming spaces' in a variety of venues, such as libraries, community centres, church halls, sports clubs and many other places. One such welcoming space is the Newbridge library, which sits within the Newbridge memorial hall, where my constituency office is located. But it is these iconic community buildings—like the Newbridge Memo, which hosted Paul Robeson—that have played an integral cultural role in the life of our communities that must continue to do so. Indeed, our industrial mining heritage is integrally tied with cultural and musical offers of such mining workmen's halls. I see for myself on a weekly basis how important this building is in terms of its cultural hub, and also its performing auditorium, existing at the very heart. So, it is right that the Welsh Government has linked this, and has provided an initial amount of £1 million to support the development and expansion of warm hubs across Wales. The pandemic, and now the cost-of-living crisis, has shown how we now need, more than ever, to create and sustain focal cultural community points where society can come together, because together we truly are stronger, and culturally we are stronger.

Finally, I want to turn to recommendation 8, namely that the Welsh Government should provide leadership to the culture and sport sectors during the cost-of-living crisis. It was good to see the Welsh Government accept this recommendation, and I note that the Government states it has committed almost £4 million during the financial year to the National Library of Wales, National Museum Wales and the arts sector, via the Arts Council of Wales, as well as a variety of other bodies. The ability of the culture and sporting sectors to uplift their managerial and leadership competence is vital to the delivery of events and offerings on the ground to members of the public and our communities, and I do look forward to watching this piece of work progress.

Llywydd, we are all, I believe, summoned here in Senedd Cymru as the custodians and guardians of the rich and vibrant tapestry of Welsh life, and not just guardians but proponents of our cultural life, to be vigilant, to safeguard Wales and to safeguard our cultural and sporting landscapes, and drive, steer and lead Wales into a new renaissance—identity, artistry and excellence. Diolch.

I do think this is a very important committee report and debate. The leisure sector has a very important role to play in our lives in Wales, including physical activity and sport. They are so important for the enjoyment of life, health and fitness, quality of life. And, thankfully, I think we've seen much better links between the worlds of sport and fitness and the worlds of health and, indeed, social care. In Newport, we're lucky in terms of our leisure trust, Newport Live, which I think has shown some very good examples generally and in terms of those links with the health sector. So, they've done much in terms of referrals for exercise, cardiac rehabilitation, dealing with long COVID, using centres for vaccination during the pandemic, and now, opening up the Newport centre for rough sleepers. So, they are working to establish links across the piece, which I think is very, very important.

But, as we've heard, this good work is under dire threat now because of energy costs, the cost-of-living crisis, inflation and, of course, the impact on salaries. Newport Live are committed to paying the living wage, and rightly so, and that in itself will result in something like a £350,000 per annum increase in their salary bill. So, what we see I think is less income and greater outgoings, and that will mean less sport and less physical activity. And, sadly, possible redundancies for committed workforces across Wales and the undermining of our work on health and well-being, which will add to long-term pressures on the national health service. And, of course, as we've already heard, it's the most vulnerable and relatively disadvantaged who are likely to suffer the most, because they will be priced out of the market, as it were, and not able to meet the costs, and indeed increased costs that are likely to come about to deal with these pressures on the sector.

So, it's such a difficult time. And, as we've heard, the impact on swimming pools is also very worrying, as part of the general picture. I think we know, don't we, that many more of our young people need to learn to swim, for the reasons that we've already heard about. I'm a regular user of my local swimming pool, and I've certainly noticed the drop in temperature in recent times, it must be said. But, it's a great benefit to adults who want to have the benefits of what is one of the very best forms of exercise as well as being so important in terms of teaching our young people to swim.

We face the prospect of reduced hours, increasing charges, the more disadvantaged suffering disproportionately more than groups with greater incomes—all of that is so worrying for so many of our Welsh Government's most important strategies and programmes. We saw a very important shoring up of the sector, I think, during the pandemic from Welsh Government and others, and it would be such a tragedy if that support was undermined by the current crisis and, perhaps, not matching support at this time to deal with this particular challenge. We know that, as ever, the UK Government is woefully lacking in its response in terms of those energy costs and their refusal to properly support the leisure sector at such a crucial time.

Could I say as well, Llywydd, that I do believe that this is the sector that has been proactive in dealing with some of these challenges? They're not just sitting about waiting for support to come to them. Jenny Rathbone mentioned the energy situation, for example, and I know that Newport Live have done much in terms of solar panels on roofs, energy efficiency; they have many more plans to use their roofs for those solar panels and to harness ground source heat. But they will require help to meet the initial cost, if they are able to do that, and it’s a real invest-to-save opportunity that I hope Welsh Government can support.

Llywydd, the leisure sector, sport and physical activity have so much to offer, and these leisure trusts are so important in terms of supporting local sports clubs and community groups. All of this is in this very important report and I just hope that we can—Welsh Government and others—rise to meet these challenges to offer this support, which is so important for the long term and the preventative agenda that our well-being of future generations Act requires us to take with the utmost seriousness.

The Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to contribute to the debate, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Thank you. Can I put on record, first, my thanks to the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee for their in-depth and considered inquiry into the impact of rising costs on culture and sport, and for bringing this debate to the Senedd this afternoon?

The impact of rising costs is particularly high across culture and sport areas within my portfolio, highlighting organisations and sectors that have been struggling to recover financially from the pandemic. And, as has been acknowledged by several contributors this afternoon, significant support was afforded to these sectors through the pandemic to ensure that they could recover post pandemic and be part of our post-pandemic recovery. However, unfortunately, we slid out of the pandemic into a cost-of-living crisis and an energy crisis that we had not anticipated. Large increases in energy prices are adding to those significant pressures on budgets, as we’ve heard. Less disposable income means people having to tighten belts and spend less on leisure and entertainment. Increased living costs are also impacting on the recruitment and retention of staff and volunteers, as people struggle to afford travel costs and childcare, or opt for better paid work. In some instances, the combined results of these challenges is reduced programmes of activities across Wales. Significant increases in supply chain costs, particularly in relation to materials and labour, are also impacting on capital projects and maintenance work.

So, turning to the committee’s report and recommendations, I’m pleased that the Welsh Government’s responded positively to the committee’s report and its recommendations, and we’re pleased to accept most of them—eight out of the 10—and on the two that we didn’t accept, I’ll expand a little bit further. So, on recommendation 6, the call for a UK-wide support package for the culture and sport sectors, as we’ve said, this is a matter wholly for the UK Government. The impact of the increased cost of living and the failure of the UK Government’s promises to replace EU funding in full has created significant challenges, and despite what Tom Giffard said, we should not be letting the UK Government off the hook on this one, and suggest that other people do the job for them. This is an area that is wholly a reserved matter and it is the responsibility of the UK Government. As a Welsh Government—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

In my actual contribution, I called on you to work with the UK Government—

To work with them, yes.

—which you didn't do. Not to let them off the hook in any way. As you know, I was part of the committee that put together that recommendation, and I still wholeheartedly believe in it. So, I just wanted to clarify that comment.

I think you probably have to understand it from our perspective, because actually, working with UK Government is actually a contradiction in terms, because they don’t let you work with them; they dictate to you what they want to dictate to you, they trample all over devolved areas of competence by trying to directly bypass us and put money into places that don’t fall into our programme for government. So they’re not the easiest people to work with. So, I’ll say that at the outset.

But as a Welsh Government, we will continue to work to prioritise our budgets to shield the most vulnerable and to maintain our commitment to create a stronger, fairer and greener Wales.

The other recommendation that we didn’t accept was recommendation 10, that the Welsh Government improves its engagement with the culture sector. Now, we have an exemplar record in terms of engagement with our sectors. We work closely and collaboratively with both sector bodies and individual organisations to monitor and understand the impact of the cost-of-living crisis, and this is being developed further through our work on the new culture strategy. Accepting this recommendation would have been contradictory, therefore, as it would have been accepting that we weren't doing what we clearly are in this area.

In respect of other recommendations raised in the debate today, our responses are as follows: on working with the national library to preserve its collections in recommendation 1, the Welsh Government is working with colleagues at the national library and providing additional support, where possible, considering the impact of rising costs that we've seen in recent months. An additional £650,000 was awarded in 2022-23 to help address the increased cost of utilities and cost-of-living pressures, and a further £500,000 to pay for a new fire system to ensure the safety of their collections. In 2024-25, it will specifically receive an additional £1.5 million towards its new collection store.

The library will also be part of a wider project that we are looking at in relation to collections management and potential shared storage solutions across both national and local cultural organisations. This would explore capital improvements, including the potential to reduce costs through the sharing of resources and reduction in energy usage, through more environmentally friendly models and storage collections. The initial phase of this work is due to be completed in March 2024.

The national library will also see an increase in its revenue grant in aid. For the next two financial years, we have made available additional, time-limited and ring-fenced funding to support additional pressures relating to pay, the cost of living and utilities. Further additional funding will be provided to support the co-operation agreement priorities, including financial sustainability, and whilst further pressures relating to inflation remain a concern during this period, this additional funding will help support the national library in 2023-24 and 2024-25.

With regard to recommendation 2, again, this refers to a UK Government scheme. The energy bill relief scheme is a UK Government initiative, and we've already made representations to the UK Government around including intensive users, such as swimming pools, within the highest threshold for support. We're working closely with Sport Wales, with the Welsh Sports Association and Swim Wales to continue to make that case, because if prices go up, businesses will have to pay the additional costs.

Libraries and museums will also be eligible for extra support as energy-intensive industries, but leisure centres and swimming pools will not be equally protected from high energy prices. The Welsh Government included representations about swimming pools in its response to the consultation on the energy bill relief scheme, and is continuing to discuss these issues and to make representation to the UK Government. Officials also met with sector representatives on 20 January to gather evidence to make the strongest possible case for leisure centres and pools to be afforded the support that has been outlined today.

On recommendations 3 and 4 about support for leisure trusts greening their energy supply and consumption, local authorities and other public sector organisations can access technical and financial support from the Welsh Government's energy service to improve the energy efficiency of their swimming pools and leisure centres, including those managed by leisure trusts, helping to reduce carbon emissions, and the financial support comprising of zero-interest loans from the Wales funding programme. Now, organisations should be considering, of course, their own energy costs and resilience as part of their usual capital estate planning. However, the unhypothecated capital funding provided to local authorities may be used to support sports and social facilities by local authorities in this way if authorities consider it appropriate for them to do so, because, as Tom Giffard knows, we are very well aware that local authorities are clear that they do not want hypothecated funding. So, the additional uplift that they have had in their rate support grant this year enables them to make greater choices about how they utilise their funding.

Specific capital funds are also provided by Welsh Government for replacement and extensive refurbishment of remodelling of schools and colleges—for example, through the sustainable communities for learning programme. Such projects are now required to deliver net-zero carbon, and often include sports facilities. Funding is also provided through the local authority buildings capital grant, which is introduced from 2023-24, and which may also benefit sports or cultural buildings within the local authority estate. Such projects will also be eligible for support from the culture division's capital transformation scheme for local museums, libraries and archives. The funding we provide to Sport Wales also supports the sector to meet our expectations on the all-Wales net-zero plan and build resilience to the impacts of climate change, ensuring that we can deliver and continue to deliver on our key public services.

In response to recommendations 5 and 8, which focus upon provision of additional support and targeted funding to the sports and cultural sectors, the Welsh Government recognises the exceptional inflationary pressures to utility costs and cost-of-living pressures that the arm's-length bodies and also local sector organisations are experiencing. And to assist with these pressures, Welsh Ministers have agreed collectively to provide £4.175 million during the 2022-23 financial year to the National Library of Wales, Amgueddfa Cymru / National Museum Wales, the arts sector via the Arts Council of Wales, the sports sector via Sport Wales, the independent museums and community libraries in Wales—

Will you take an intervention?

—the Books Council of Wales and the independent creative industries in Wales. 

I'm listening to your speech. The Government has already responded to the report; I was hoping that the Minister would also respond to the debate. One of the issues I tried to raise in the debate was the issue of equality, and I think it's important that that and the matters that other colleagues have raised—very important issues—in this debate this afternoon—I think it's important that we hear a response to those issues, because we've read the Government response to the report, and we want to hear a response to the debate as well.

I was coming on to some of the points that you've raised earlier.

Well, it's fine to think about coming on to them, but we are already two minutes over time. I'll allow you a minute or so to conclude.

Okay. So, Sport Wales I think is the point that was majored by Alun Davies, which concerns participation in sport and providing equal access. I spoke about this in committee last week, on the funding for Sport Wales and the way in which our funding is set out very clearly—our direction to Sport Wales is set out very clearly in the remit letter. Part of that remit letter sets out very clearly where we expect that funding to be targeted, and that was the point I was trying to make in committee last week. The remit letter very clearly sets out that we are seeking to direct the significant capital investment funding over the next couple of years to be targeted into those areas of greatest need, and those will be in those areas of deprivation.

I'm very conscious of time, Llywydd, and I haven't really covered our response to all of the recommendations that were set out in the report. Suffice it to say, in closing, I want to reiterate that we are taking immediate steps across a number of areas to address the complex issues that have been raised by this report, and we'll seek to implement these recommendations that we've accepted with the importance that they deserve, supporting our collective efforts to respond to the cost-of-living and energy crisis, and we will continue to engage with the UK Government and press it to use the levers at its disposal to provide wider support to the culture and sports sectors. Diolch yn fawr.

Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I thank everyone who took part in this debate. I think it has been a very powerful debate. Tom Giffard talked about the importance of these venues for our communities; he talked about how fragile they are. And Alun Davies talked about how the impact of this crisis is having a disproportionate impact, as he said in his intervention, and that the most disadvantaged people and areas suffer the biggest effects from this. That is a very important point and it has arisen in several ways in many different points during this debate. Heledd Fychan drew attention to the same point about equality. Sports and culture are not nice-to-have things, as Heledd said; they are vital. I thought that what Heledd said about the hidden costs, such as transport costs, I thought that was very important, and the same thread arose in terms of what Carolyn Thomas said—again, the costs on families, things such as transport, and the importance of all of this for health.

It's always good to hear from Members more broadly around the Chamber, rather than just the committee members. I thank Jack Sargeant, who spoke, again, about this petition about swimming pools. That situation is very serious for the sector and for the population as well. As Jack reminded us all, swimming can save lives. We'll return to what the Deputy Minister said about this. This is something that the committee will want to monitor, in terms of that issue.

We heard from Rhianon Passmore about how these venues are vital to the history of our communities—Paul Robeson and so forth—but also our health now, in terms of our warm hubs. I think that point is vital: how coming together as a community gives us a greater benefit, in a way that is hard to define. It's not just a financial benefit; it relates to the health and soul of our society.

John Griffiths mentioned how the quality of our lives is improved by these centres in Newport, and, of course, that's true across all of Wales. A lot of these threads arose time and again, and they were echoed—I'm mixing my metaphors now, but there were a number of points that were very important that arose during the debate.

I thank the Deputy Minister for her comments. I am pleased that the majority of our recommendations have been accepted. In terms of those that have not been accepted, I'm still concerned that the Government is not responding adequately to the long-term risks for the sport and culture sectors, and the risk to the health of the nation. Now, ideally, a UK Government funding package would drive Barnett consequentials that the Welsh Government could use to fund a package for the cost-of-living crisis for sport and culture. Certainly, as a committee, we would like to see something like that happening.

But the Welsh Government, as I said, on the whole—. Again, I'll return to the point about swimming pools, but at the outset they haven't started discussions with the UK Government to that end. During the pandemic, the Welsh Government didn't wait for the UK Government to act. In April 2020, it worked with the arts council to implement an emergency package long before it received any additional funding from the UK Government, and I would say that the Welsh Government now needs to emulate that sense of urgency that was evident during the pandemic. I think that there are so many things that have been raised during this debate this afternoon that have showed why this is such an urgent issue.

We have learned from the pandemic that it's sometimes better to overreact rather than wait and try to solve bigger problems in the future. Again, things have deteriorated so much since we published the report, I don't think we would be talking about overreacting here. There are so many venues now that are at risk of permanent closure. Again, there is a great risk of harming these sectors for an indefinite period in the future. This, in turn, as we've heard, will harm the income of organisations in these sectors, meaning that many people—again, often the most disadvantaged—and, as we've heard many times, the most disadvantaged areas, would miss out on the physical, mental and social benefits associated with taking part, as well those difficult-to-define things, as we've heard, such as the soul of our communities. So, I would urge the Government to seize this opportunity.

Finally, I would like to say again that it is good to hear that the Government is making the case for swimming pools particularly to Westminster; that's to be welcomed, certainly. We heard a lot in the debate about how vital that intervention is. So, to close, I would like to thank again everyone who took part in this debate and in the inquiry. I do hope that there will be more light shed on these very important sectors to our society: culture and sport.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.