Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 6:57 pm on 31 January 2023.
I thank Members for all of the various comments and questions that have been raised in the debate.
On the policy through the different trade deals, our disagreement with the UK Government is clear. And I respect and understand why both Mabon ap Gwynfor and Alun Davies made comments about that; that's not really the point in the sense of the vote today on the LCM, but we have not resiled from our disagreements on the policies struck by the UK Government. We were clear about that at the time. George Eustice, once he'd left the Government, was also remarkably clear about the drivers for getting this particular deal over the line and the impact that it would have. We understood those tendencies existed within the UK Government, but he did say that in very, very clear terms.
What Members are really being asked to do, as the Conservatives want us to, is to agree that elected Members in this Senedd should vote for powers to be taken away from Welsh Ministers to be put in UK Government hands so that they can simply act for us, and indeed what that does to the scrutiny of this Senedd. And Alun Davies is right about that. I just don't see how Members here could say that this is the right course of action for the UK Government to take in the Bill that it proposes. And it shouldn't be a party-political perspective. It shouldn't be about loyalty to the UK Conservatives, saying that we would celebrate and ask others to do that here.
And the challenge is—and I understand the point made by the LJC committee—alternative powers in different legislation on the same subject, if we were to take an alternative Bill, and we would be into potential ping-pong between different Governments on the same subject. And actually, this Bill should have a relatively short lifespan. We are genuinely concerned, and it's a regular point of conversation with the Counsel General, about how to address the issue. And I'd remind Members of what the First Minister said last week: once Sewel is breached, the next time it becomes easier, and as it carries on and on it is no longer extraordinary. And the concern is that the choice to override devolution, the powers of Welsh Ministers and this Senedd is becoming more normalised and not accidental within this Government. [Interruption.]