Well, I'd like to thank the Member for his contribution, and it was very similar to the contribution he made about 18 months, two years ago. It hasn’t changed at all. It seems to me you haven’t realised that the debate has moved on. We’ve had the debate over the merits of the commission and the purpose to it, and what we’re now having is a commission that is actually engaging about its work. I would have hoped that there would be a slightly more constructive contribution to the work. I understand you disagree with the commission and you didn’t want to see it established. You don’t think the purpose of its work is important. But that is not the view of the majority of this Senedd.

Can I just say, firstly, in terms of your first comments with regard to the whole of the UK, the First Minister and the Welsh Government and the Welsh Labour Party has made it absolutely clear what the Welsh Labour position is? And that is that it is in support of the union. It believes Wales is better off in the union, in a prosperous union, but believes that the union is in desperate need of reform. That reform, ironically, is very much recognised—the need for that reform—across political parties in Westminster, and, when you talk about constitutional tinkering, well, if this is tinkering, all we need to look at is the raft after raft after raft of legislation that’s going through Westminster that impacts on this place—the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, which is all about constitutional reform; the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, which, again, is essentially about reform; the suggestion now that they’re going to resurrect the bill of rights, which is, again, about constitutional reform; the United Kingdom Internal Market Act, which is about undermining devolution and constitutional reform; even the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill has significant constitutional implications.

The constitution is important to people’s lives because it is about how power is exercised, how it is distributed and the sort of governance we have, and if you don’t recognise that there is a real precipice for our democracy in terms of people's belief in democratic systems, then I believe you're failing even those you represent in respect of the need for change. I believe that the commission is necessary, because I believe Wales has to have a voice within this process. There has to be an examination, an exploration, of the issues that are important to Wales, and we have to be able to express those ourselves, and that is what the work of the commission is about. 

I understand the points you make and you're perfectly entitled to make those particular points; in fact, I hope you've made them to the commission, because I understand you have attended the commission to give evidence. I understand from the commission that they originally asked to meet with the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies, were initially directed to Mark Isherwood but since have met with yourself. But, equally so, Simon Hart, as Secretary of State for Wales, has given evidence to the commission, and the UK Government levelling-up Minister, Neil O'Brien, has also given. So, I think it is an important recognition, after the hyperbole, that I think there are people on the Conservatives side who are taking the commission seriously and who are engaging, because, if they didn't think it was an important event, whether they agree with it or not, I don't think they would have wanted to participate in it. 

Just to say that the commission is, of course, independent. Its terms of reference were well debated within this Chamber. It is not for us, having established an independent commission, to direct that commission and tell it what it is to do. But, having read the report and having had a meeting with the commission, I'm impressed with the work that is now ongoing, which is very, very serious, in-depth and detailed engagement. I was very impressed with the interim report, because the importance of the interim report, unlike often the case with interim reports, is that it doesn't actually say, 'This is an interim report and these are the conclusions we're going to reach in due course.' It has basically set out the variety of opinions there and is going out to actually engage, and I think that engagement is important. I believe deep down in your heart, after you've made the publicity statements that you wanted to make, that, deep down, you really do believe in the importance of this commission and the importance of actually engaging with it, even if you don't think it should be here.