3. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: The LGBTQ+ Action Plan

– in the Senedd at 2:30 pm on 7 February 2023.

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Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 2:30, 7 February 2023

(Translated)

Item 3 is next, and it's a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on the LGBTQ+ action plan. I call on the Deputy Minister, Hannah Blythyn. 

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour

LGBT History Month offers an opportunity to reflect on how far we’ve come in the struggle for LGBTQ+ rights, and to celebrate the lives of LGBTQ+ people who, for too long and too often, have been hidden from history. But, we don’t just need to reflect on our past; we need to learn lessons from it. We will not forget the harm that discrimination, hate and exclusion have caused to so many LGBTQ+ people. Nor will we forget the progress and achievements that we've made over the past 40 years, thanks to the activists and allies that paved the way.

But we cannot be complacent. LGBTQ+ people can still face discrimination and harassment. We’re in an age when it can feel like we’re under attack and our rights at risk of being rolled back, with LGBTQ+ communities routinely weaponised in the name of so-called political and media debate. We remain absolute that the Welsh Government stands together with and within our LGBTQ+ communities in Wales. We want to create a Wales where everyone feels free, supported and safe to be and live their lives as their authentic selves. That’s why LGBTQ+ rights are embedded in our programme for government, are a key component of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and why we have developed a bold and ambitious LGBTQ+ action plan.

I am proud to be able to announce the launch and publication today of our ambitious and wide-ranging LGBTQ+ action plan for Wales—the first of its kind. This plan strengthens protections for LGBTQ+ people, promotes equality for all, and helps co-ordinate actions across Government, communities and the country, in order to achieve our ambition of making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe. Whilst publishing this plan is a key step in this journey, our work to improve equality for LGBTQ+ people has already begun. Just last month, I set out our next steps in our work to ban conversion practices. Support services have been expanded across Wales, and a working group of experts has been formed. The group will provide us with the advice and expertise that we need to consign these abhorrent practices to history, and the first meeting has already taken place. Alongside this, our anti-hate crime communications campaign, Hate Hurts Wales, will have an increased LGBTQ+ focus this year, and will signpost to the Wales hate support centre, which offers confidential support to victims.

Progress has also been made in sexual health through the forthcoming HIV action plan for Wales, and we renew our commitments to tackle late diagnosis in Wales and HIV-related stigma, and improve the quality of life of people living with HIV. In the past year, we have provided funding to local Pride organisations around Wales. The grass-roots Pride fund supported north Wales Pride in Bangor, Pride in the Port in Newport, Swansea, Cowbridge, Barry Pride, and Glitter Pride, connecting communities across the country. We know the value of this and the difference it can make to the LGBTQ+ community, and this coming year, we will build on this success by expanding the grass-roots Pride fund. We hope to reach out further, embracing more rural areas and smaller towns, enabling Welsh language events and ensuring that there are opportunities for people to come together and be their true selves right across Wales.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I stated earlier how, sadly, all too often in the current climate, it feels like our rights are under attack, none more so than that of the trans community, from the toxicity of Twitter, to so-called populist politics and a media narrative designed to pitch people against one another. We recommit ourselves to supporting trans and non-binary people, and our starting point is that trans men are men, trans women are women, and non-binary identities are valid. The Welsh Government stands with all of our LGBTQ+ communities and, as politicians and public figures, we can and must be better.

That’s why we’re committed to doing all that we can to improve the lives of trans people in Wales, and to seeking any further power to do this, including our programme for government and co-operation agreement commitment to trigger a request to devolve the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and support our trans community, and preliminary work on this has already started. Work has also begun on developing guidance for local authorities and schools to support transgender children and young people, so that they can be confident and comfortable in supporting trans students in all aspects of school life.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I must acknowledge the support of so many in the making of this plan. A significant number of stakeholders, individuals and organisations have contributed to the plan’s development. People generously gave their time and many shared their experience of discrimination and hostility as citizens in Wales. They also shared their achievements as advocates, workers and leaders, as researchers, experts and professionals, and as communities. I want particularly to put on record my thanks to the LGBTQ+ expert panel, who provided help, advice and challenge, which allowed us to focus on what we could do to make a difference to people’s lives. I'd also like to thank the top team within the Welsh Government, whose hard work is behind me, being able to stand here and launch this plan today.

Indeed, it is a plan that reaches across Government, and I am grateful for the steadfast cross-Government support of my ministerial colleagues. This ongoing collective support will be vital in turning the plan from words on a page into practical actions that make a real difference. As they say, actions speak louder than words. It’s about changing lives not just changing legislation, it's about people, not policies alone. But words matter too; what we do and what we say has an impact. So let’s be clear, as we publish this LGBTQ+ action plan today, that, here in Wales, we stand for unity over division, inclusion rather than exclusion and hope not hate. Together in pride—making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe. Diolch.

Photo of Altaf Hussain Altaf Hussain Conservative 2:36, 7 February 2023

Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister. We broadly welcome the LGBTQ+ action plan for Wales, as well as its introduction during LGBTQ+ History Month. We have come a long way in ensuring equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people. The mistakes of the past, such as section 11 of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885, which saw thousands of men prosecuted in the 1950s just for loving another man. By the end of 1954, there were 1,069 homosexual men in prison in England and Wales. A high-profile figure like Alan Turing had fallen foul of these insidious laws. Thankfully, these laws are consigned to the dustbin of history, and Alan Turing was awarded a posthumous pardon. They have been replaced by a slew of equalities legislation, including a legal right to same-sex marriage. We should be proud of how far we have come to promoting LGBT rights, but there's so much more that can be done.

Just this weekend, the Pope, together with the Archbishop of Canterbury, rightly condemned nations that pursued anti-gay legislation. But yet, the Catholic Church still opposes same-sex marriage. We are all equal in the eyes of God, regardless of our chosen gender, or whom we choose to fall in love with. Nobody should feel threatened or abused because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. This is why my party welcomes this action plan. However, Deputy Minister, I do have a few concerns; your decision to seek powers over gender recognition is chief among them. Why do you believe that this is the right approach, as opposed to working together with the Governments across the United Kingdom, to secure an approach to gender recognition that protects the rights of the transgender community whilst at the same time protecting the rights of all women? Deputy Minister, do you not agree that the approach pursued by the Scottish Government is fraught with pitfalls for all groups, as demonstrated by the embarrassing u-turn over the Isla Bryson debacle? The Scottish First Minister has invented a new gender of rapist to avoid calling Isla Bryson a woman. I'm sure that you'll agree that there are real concerns from both the trans community and from those seeking to protect women's rights that need to be addressed in such a way as to protect everyone's rights. Do you agree that the best way is to approach the issue on a UK-wide basis so as to avoid having multiple differing or even conflicting systems of gender recognition, and that we need to have a measured debate without the hyperbole of death threats?

My other concern is around the ability of parents and the medical professionals to help young people struggling with gender dysphoria. Whilst it is absolutely right that we ban the despicable practice of conversion therapy, we must take great care to ensure that any new legislation does not have unintended consequences. Deputy Minister, what steps will you take to ensure that any new legislation does not prevent parents and medical professionals discussing a young person's concern regarding their sexuality or gender identity?

Finally Deputy Minister, whilst I welcome the commitment to ensuring that our nation of sanctuary remains inclusive of LGBTQ+ people, I do question the development of LGBTQ+ only asylum properties in Wales. We can and we must ensure that Wales is a safe and welcoming place for those forced to flee their home nations because they are being prosecuted for who they love or who they are, but we should be guaranteeing housing for all asylum seekers with protected characteristics. We cannot provide enough housing for those fleeing the conflict in Ukraine, many of whom will be LGBTQ+. Deputy Minister, as my colleague Mark Isherwood highlighted a couple of weeks ago, the Irish Government are providing modular housing to home thousands of refugees. What discussions have you had with your Cabinet colleagues about replicating such a move here in Wales so that we can house those fleeing prosecution and murder because of their sexual orientation or gender identity?

Thank you once again for your statement, Deputy Minister, and please be assured that my party will work with you to make Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe, as well as tackling divisions, exclusion and hate. Diolch yn fawr.

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour 2:42, 7 February 2023

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As this is a 30-minute statement, I don't think I've got enough time to pick up every contradiction that Altaf Hussain made in his contribution then. I welcome the opening remarks and the profound words you said—that we're all equal in the eyes of God. Yes, I can celebrate my life in church by having a funeral there, but I'm yet to be able to celebrate my love in church by being able to get married there. Those were positive words, but then you went on to unravel everything that you'd said in your commitment to help us make Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe. You said about working with the UK Government. Actually, as a Welsh Government, we have engaged previously in good faith, particularly around plans to ban LGBTQ+ inclusive conversion practices. They then did a u-turn on that, and a u-turn on the u-turn. I think you're very much replicating the u-turn on the u-turn in your contribution as well. So, we have to do what we need to do to defend and protect our LGBTQ+ community in Wales. We have a duty and a responsibility to do that. I'm willing to work cross party, cross Government, across the UK, to do the right thing. But, we have to remember, as I said in my statement that this isn't about politics, it's not about policies, it's about people and their lives and their right to live with dignity and respect and to feel safe and supported. 

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru 2:44, 7 February 2023

(Translated)

Thank you for the statement, Deputy Minister.

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru

The co-operation agreement between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru promises to make Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe and support the publication of an LGBTQ+ action plan. Today is therefore a proud day for Plaid Cymru, as for Adam Price as the first LGBTQ+ party leader in the Senedd, with part of that commitment realised with the publication of the action plan, an action plan that shows so clearly our shared ambition with the Welsh Government for Wales to be the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe. It demonstrates also our shared values of fairness, tolerance and justice, of protecting and bestowing rights, not taking them away, and our shared determination to call out bigotry, hatred, inequality and discrimination in all corners of our nation. But this plan is just the start, because it addresses an urgent need to create a fairer Wales, because this is a Wales where hate crimes against LGBTQ+ people are increasing, and hate crimes against transgender people specifically are skyrocketing. Last year, Estyn found homophobic bullying was the most common kind of bullying in secondary schools. So, we agree with Stonewall Cymru that there is much work to do. 

In Plaid Cymru, we often refer to our country as a community of communities, and I'm glad to see how this plan demonstrates that it is one for the whole of Wales. The recognition of rurality in the LGBTQ+ experience is a welcome example of this approach, as well as the need for further research to address this. So, could the Deputy Minister tell us how she proposes this will be taken forward? And does she agree that building alliances across communities and organisations, working with the young farmers, for example, will be crucially important to achieve this vision? 

The intersectional approach of the plan is also very welcome, and, whilst not being a protected characteristic, I'm glad this plan acknowledges the Welsh language needs and identities of the LGBTQ+ community, and I'm particularly glad the the National Eisteddfod's Mas ar y Maes partnership with Stonewall Cymru and others is highlighted and there is an action to develop this further. 

The Deputy Minister highlighted the cross-governmental approach of this plan, and it's certainly encouraging to see meaningful detail underpinning the vision and transparency about which Welsh Government team and department will be accountable for bringing this vision to life. The actions to tackle discrimination in the workplace are a crucial and practical component of this plan. I would, however, like some more detail on the stated outcome of LGBTQ+ people understanding and being able to use pathways for reporting discrimination in Welsh workplaces. As you may recall, I've previously raised with the Government the BMA's 'Sexual orientation and gender identity in the medical profession' report, which highlights that LGBTQ+ doctors are regularly suffering abuse and discrimination, and the staff often report they feel unable to voice their concerns with management. Both Scotland and England have independent mechanisms in place across their hospitals for staff to voice concerns about this in a safe way, but there's nothing in place across Wales yet, despite a 'freedom to speak up' framework being worked on. I was assured that the cross-governmental approach of the action plan would address these concerns, so could you provide me with assurances this will be the case? 

I would like to specifically welcome the measurable nature of the actions and outcomes in the plan, for example, around the commitment to devolved powers in relation to gender recognition. We have seen in Scotland, even though they have greater autonomy to act than Wales in this area, the cross-party political consensus in the Scottish Parliament being undemocratically and outrageously frustrated by Westminster. So, while welcoming this action plan, I would ask you, Deputy Minister, to consider how we can really ultimately be the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe with one hand tied behind our backs by Westminster. In the immediate term, can you advise what strategies we can pursue to ensure these powers are rightly devolved and able to be implemented in relation to gender recognition? And, on the wider question of justice, do you, Deputy Minister, accept that the only sustainable way of creating an inclusive and safe criminal justice system for our LGBTQ+ community that works for Wales is by creating a system here in Wales, even if the Labour Party in Westminster continues to team up with the Tories to block it?

The theme for this year's LGBTQ+ history month is 'Behind the Lens'. This action plan undoubtedly sharpens our focus on the work that needs to be done to create the Wales we want to see by truly seeing all those who call Wales their home. That focus must be maintained, and the reality it captures must continuously inform how we achieve the vision of being the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe. 

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour 2:49, 7 February 2023

Diolch, Sioned. Indeed, I share your sentiments that this is a proud day for us, not just in this Siambr, but in communities across Wales, and I've had lost of positive feedback already about, actually, how important to have the plan itself is. But, like you say, the proof is in the application of those actions and actually how we make people feel safe and supported in the future. And I'd like to also place on record my thanks to Siân Gwenllian for the work she's done with us on this action plan, and the passionate commitment that came from Siân and the team to actually making this work and the recognition that the majority of this Senedd Chamber is supportive of our LGBTQ+ inclusive work and ambitions for Wales. I said previously—and I'm not going apologise for saying this over and over again—that actions are important; actions are what make a difference. But what we say can have such an impact as well, and not always in a positive way. So, I do think that we all need to think about that before we open our mouths or tweet some of the time as well—and that's not just for politicians; it's for others as well.

I will try and touch as much as I can on the points that you raised, but I am sure that it is something that we will pick up in ongoing dialogue following this. It's about the opportunities that we have got in terms of workplace inclusion. It's so important that you can go to work and feel like you can be yourself, or feel like you can raise a concern if something sadly happens and that you have a safe space or a place to go to to report that. So, I'm certainly happy to give assurances that we will build on what is in the action plan, and use every lever that we do currently have in Wales around that, particularly in the public sector.

There is best practice happening in the private sector too. I am visiting somewhere at the end of the month. So, hopefully we can work on that and share it. I was particularly keen, as part of the action plan, that we included the work that some of our trade union colleagues are already doing, because why reinvent the wheel if there are good resources there and good support networks? I think that we can really learn and spread that out across workplaces across Wales too, to make sure that people can go to work and truly be themselves and feel that they are in a safe space. Unless you are a multimillionaire or you have won the lottery, work is such a significant part of each and every one of our lives.

I welcome support around the inclusion and support for the Welsh language. It's so important that not only can you live your life as your true self, but in your first language as well, and be supported to do that and being able to do that as well.

The final thing to touch on is around the 35 per cent increase in LGBTQ+ hate crime. We talk about how far we have come, and I think that, rightly, LGBT history month is the time to talk about that and celebrate that. I said before in this Chamber that, when I was growing up in Wales, I couldn't marry the person that I loved. I could get discriminated against in goods and services. I couldn't be talked about in school. So, we have come a long way, but I recognise that we have got a long way to go still, and this plan is just a step in doing that. The elements around hate crime in the action plan not only look at what we need to do with policing and justice and the devolution of that, but also in supporting the community to feel those relationships with policing as well, and that we understand what hate crime is. I have said before that people don't really understand what that is. It doesn't have to be a physical attack; it can be verbal. I am sad to say, actually, that I looked at the figures for the last year, 2021-22, and I think that there was a 35 per cent increase in LGBT hate crime. Sadly, I am a statistic as part of that increase. I have talked about that in the Chamber as well. I think that it's important that we talk about it and raise it, and I very much welcome your support and your party's support, and I look forward to working together in common cause.

Photo of Mike Hedges Mike Hedges Labour 2:53, 7 February 2023

I welcome the statement today and the Welsh Government's support for the LGBTQ+ community. I welcome the commitment to making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe. I fully support the vision to improves the lives and outcomes for LGBTQ+ people.

I remember section 28. When I was teaching in a college, a student told me that he could bully someone who was gay and, if I tried to stop him, he would report me and get me sacked. I explained that I would always do the right thing, no matter what. We have come a long way from those days. I am disappointed that the Conservatives were unable to apologise for section 28, because it was serious discrimination and it was a really bad piece of legislation.

But I’m going to move on to the positive now. I would like to highlight the excellent work done by Pride in Swansea, and the way that Pride has grown in Swansea from a march to a full day of events, supported by the local community and the Deputy Minister. There were previously concerns from Swansea Pride about the funding available in Swansea. Has this now been resolved?

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour 2:54, 7 February 2023

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his contribution and also for his commitment as a committed ally for the LGBTQ+ community in Wales? I was proud to march alongside Mike at the most recent Swansea Pride—the first march post pandemic—and it was wonderful to see lots of young people there as well, with the younger community coming out. It's important that we pass the baton on. This is what it's about, actually—creating a different Wales for them to grow up in.

You raised that spectre of section 28, and well done, Mike, for standing your ground and doing the right thing, but I wouldn't expect anything else from you, Mike Hedges. That shadow of section 28 still hangs over us. It still hangs over many teachers and schools who are still nervous about wanting to do the right thing, but may feel nervous. That's why the education part of this action plan, and the work we're already doing with our inclusive curriculum, is so, so important, so that children and young people are not only supported in schools, but also—the issues Sioned Williams raised around homophobic bullying as well—that teachers have that support to be able to support the children and young people in turn.

I wouldn't expect anything less from Mike than to mention trying to put a pitch in for support for Swansea Pride, and while Mike will understand I can't actually directly commit to any specific Pride support at the moment, I can refer to the grass-roots Pride fund, which we will be carrying on for the next year. I would expect Swansea Pride to be contacting officials, probably before I've got out of this Chamber, to try and put their bid in for future support. But I hope Swansea Pride continues to go from strength to strength, as do other Prides across the country, and I hope to be able to continue to support it.

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative 2:56, 7 February 2023

Of course, Deputy Minister, we all want the best for the LGBTQ+ community and we want to see a fairer Wales. But, as I read through this plan today, I read some of it with disbelief, and I find a lot of this plan genuinely concerning: pushing gender ideology in nurseries and schools, unfairness in sports, and, incredibly, seeing that you still want to push ahead for those powers to emulate the self-identification Bill in Scotland, despite the clear risks that it poses to women and children's safety. The UN expert on violence against women and girls warned on this move in Scotland, yet here is your plan. Your own Minister for Social Justice stood up in this Chamber time and time again talking about the importance of women-only refuges and spaces—it is so important, yet today you announce that you want to make it easier for biological males to enter those spaces. What about protecting women and girls? What about those Welsh mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts, when creating this plan? Will something bad have to happen before you wake up and realise the massive safeguarding issues that self-identification poses? Here we are today wasting half an hour of Senedd time on—

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 2:57, 7 February 2023

Can you ask your question, please?

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

—discussing a plan that you don't have many of the powers to change or implement. Wales having its own self-identification plan is a nonsense. It's clear from public opinion, Deputy Minister, that people see the importance of protecting women and children. When will you realise this?

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour

Deputy Presiding Officer, it's hard to find the right words to respond to Laura Anne Jones's contribution. [Interruption.] Yes, 'shameful', and I don't think I have much to say in response to that. We have just talked in this Chamber earlier today, and we've got members of the community who are here watching—your words have a dangerous impact, Laura Anne Jones. They harm people, the words that you say, the discrimination that comes out of your mouth, and what I would say is I believe you're better than this. I think you're better than this. [Interruption.] I think you're better than this. 

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour

Can I remind Members this is not a debate between two individual Members? This is a statement, and the Deputy Minister is answering the question put. 

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour 2:58, 7 February 2023

I've nothing more to say to Laura Anne Jones, Deputy Presiding Officer. 

Photo of Sarah Murphy Sarah Murphy Labour

Deputy Minister, thank you for this statement today. In my constituency, and covering Ogmore constituency as well—Huw Irranca-Davies's seat—we are really fortunate to have YPOP, which is a branch of the Bridgend Youth Council. YPOP is an online safe space for young people who are LGBTQ+ or allies, and the group hosts chat and chill drop-in sessions, special events and delivers training workshops. Whilst being a space to make friends and socialise, YPOP is also a space to come and receive support from the Bridgend council participation team if young people need it. And young people who attend YPOP have raised the point that more needs to be done to ensure that their teachers, GPs and those within the authorities have training around LGBTQ+ discrimination, how to tackle homophobia or transphobia, as well as support young people with their needs. I want to thank you, and also our education Minister as well, because I know that you're meeting me with one of our Youth Parliament Members to talk exactly about this this week, so thank you.

But there is a consistent message coming through from young people and other people in the LGBTQ+ community: that we need to normalise calling out the hate when we see it, whether that's in schools and the workplace, amongst peers, or in this Chamber. So, Deputy Minister, my question therefore is: how much consideration have you taken to rolling out the action plan in places like schools and ensuring that schools have the provisions to tackle the hate crime against the LGBTQ+ community that continues?

Photo of Hannah Blythyn Hannah Blythyn Labour 2:59, 7 February 2023

I thank Sarah Murphy for her contribution, and can I thank YPOP for their work and the contributions that they've made? I'm looking forward to the meeting I have with Sarah and my colleague Jeremy Miles later with week with the Member of the Youth Parliament, but if you have young people's groups like that and you'd like to bring them to this place to engage further, then I'm sure I and many of my ministerial colleagues will be very happy to do that. Because it's absolutely right that they have a say and a stake in the issues that affect them, and that's why—. The action plan has 46 actions in it, and there is a real focus on not just schools but youth settings and young people as well to make sure, as I said before, that they get that support in place. But I think the point that you made was really, really important, about this is not just support for, perhaps, LGBTQ+ young people or questioning young people, it's about actually supporting their friends too to be better allies and to feel that they can speak out without them fearing what the impact would be for them. So, I think it's a really, really valid point that those young people have made, and I'm sure it's something that we can take away and work on with Jeremy Miles and my colleagues across Government to make sure that all young people, whether they are members of the LGBTQ+ community themselves or just want to be good allies to their friends in school, then there are ways in which we can do that.  

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 3:00, 7 February 2023

(Translated)

I thank the Deputy Minister.