Of course, I agree with that, and I said earlier that we need to make the right thing to do the easiest thing to do. We need public transport to be on the doorstep for people to turn up and go. And one of the purposes of redirecting our roads pipeline is to free up finance in future years to allow that investment to take place. We are suffering at the moment from past decisions and from, as you said rightly, a fragmented and privatised public transport system, and, of course, the headwinds of COVID, which has caused real damage. He's absolutely right about the lack of joined-up thinking about placing services at out-of-town sites, and we need to stop that, and that's one of the things that the roads review makes very clear.

Julie James and I have been working on the new 'town centre first' policy statement, which will be published soon, which has, at its core, the need for the public sector, in particular, to join up and think about where it places its services so that it strengthens town centres, and it doesn't occur to drag them out into out-of-town centres where no thought has been given to public transport. He is right; that example is a scar on the record of joined-up thinking in the public sector. In terms of the private sector, Julie James has already published a new planning policy, 'Future Wales', which makes those sorts of developments out of line with policy. 

In terms of alternatives, we have provided and trialed the 'fflecsi' demand-responsive bus in Blaenau Gwent, and the results in different settings have been very encouraging. It's been different in the different places we've trialed it. We've got some good data that we're now evaluating. The challenge then will be to spread and scale, but, as ever, when the budgets are as they are as a result of austerity, which is a political choice by the Government in London, we don't have the resources to do all the things that we want to do. And the specific example that he quotes of the bus service in Blaenau Gwent, which, as he knows, we've tried very hard to put a publicly-subsidised bus in there, but it has been challenged by a commercial operator, and that's one of the reasons why we are re-regulating the bus network to make sure that there's a coherence to the transport system, and is not left to the randomness of the market.